Dave Ramsey and Chuck Swindoll on Money, Legacy, and Holding It All Loosely

4:33 But we're getting a little closer than we were. Yeah. Well, we got started just below scratch as well. In fact, I didn't have any idea that our broadcast would become what it was, what it was to become. We started with a couple of little shoeboxes underneath our bed. We thought that would be about the limit of our need for organization. And Cynthia and I said, well, maybe this will hold what we need for the time being. And we started on a few stations. And Al Sanders was our contact. And he said to me, you know, there are a number of stations that want your program. And first of all, I couldn't believe that I would have a program as such. Because his idea was that we will broadcast your messages from the pulpit. And congregation sounds as well as yours and all the things around there would be broadcast. and nobody was doing that then.

5:27 Whoever was doing a broadcast back then was doing it from a studio. Now, what year was that? That was 1977. We started with New Standard for Living and I was serving the Lachman Foundation. They sponsored it and they published the New American Standard Bible and that's where the name came from. And then two years later, we decided we would take it on our own as Insight for Living in 1979. So that was when many began to hear our broadcast then. But we started with about 12 stations, and it went to 100, then it went to 200, and then 400. And I kept wondering, what's the limit, you know? And before I knew it, honestly, I stayed surprised, like you must have, when Al said to me, well, we've reached all the major stations across America.

6:27 Let's look into some international broadcasting. And it went from there. I just couldn't believe it, Dave. So that's when I intersected, because when I got saved in 84, I started listening to Christian radio. I didn't even know it existed prior to that. And so I started learning how to raise kids from Jim Dobson. And I started learning how to follow finances from Larry Burkett. And I'm listening to you on how to follow Jesus. And I remember getting the Insight for Living cassette tapes, don't I? Yes. Didn't I order those? Yes. I think I did. I think I got like a monthly or a weekly or something. I was a subscriber in those. You were our monthly subscriber. Woo! That's great. Oh, there we go. So I was a consumer, man. That's me. Thank you. But I had to catch up because I knew nothing. So I had to have men like you and women like you in the distance there. And so you were iconic. You know, you were the voice on the radio talking to me about Jesus.

7:22 No, you were. And then we got to know each other, and I found out you're a regular guy, too. That's right. That's right. Yeah. It's pretty incredible. Thankfully, I had Cynthia who had the brains to run the organization. She did that for 44 years. And then at that time, she phased out, and Carissa came in, our older daughter, and she had been involved in Insight since she was 16 years old. So she knew it very well and has taken over the role of president since then. So what do you think caused that broadcast to become so popular so quickly? That's a great question. Probably not the best to answer it. I'll give it a shot. I think people appreciated the humanness of everything. I wasn't a studio personality. I wasn't putting on a broadcast.

8:15 I was simply declaring the message of the scriptures. And I did it in a way that's my style, which is realistic, not snooty, not academic, but talking about real people. Since I'm real and I come across as real and I didn't know any other way to do it. And people latched on to that because they hadn't heard that kind of thing before, apparently. And it was out of the blue, Dave, that the growth was just exponential. I couldn't believe it. I was the most surprised guy around. And then it went to Canada, and then it went to Australia, and then it went to other parts of the world. And I thought, how will we do this? And little by little, it sort of grew itself. And the public stayed interested.

9:12 We were thrilled to have that happen. As one of your old customers, I think you nailed that. I think that's exactly what happened. I think it was authenticity. Yes. It wasn't a polished show. Nope. And there was something about the spirit in your delivery that, and still is, in your delivery that made you think you could just go to dinner with this guy. and he would put his arm around you. He would tell you the truth if there was something to be told, but he would also love you. But I wouldn't beat you over the head with it. Right. There'd be no thumping on this Bible. I love it. I love it that I could just be me, and I didn't think I could be. So I sort of argued with Al saying, I can't do a broadcast because that's not me. He said, we want you to be who you are. That's what we want to broadcast. And he played me a little sample tape when he got started, And I thought, well, okay, I don't know what the big deal is, but if they want to hear that, that's fine with me.

10:09 And they wanted to hear it. And I think also it helped that they knew they could trust someone that didn't put on a front or manipulate them or play games with them. Or I'm not in it for what you're going to give to me so I can buy my airplane, you know, and keep all of that secret. I don't do that kind of stuff. I don't like that kind of stuff. I like telling them what's the truth and then let it land and let them respond. Well, their response was just phenomenal. You know, it's funny. The audio-only broadcast method, like I was in talk radio. You were doing that on Christian radio. It's an intimate medium because it's voice only. It is. And so you don't get the benefit of body language. That's right, but people can imagine.

11:02 They can sense it. They can smell a liar a mile away. It's true. They can smell a fake a mile away. They can. And I think that was your secret sauce. There was none of that that came through, and there was no pretense. And yet you stayed true to the Word. I do. And you're a great storyteller, good stories, good humor. I tell you, I knew. I'll add one more thing. I won't interrupt you. But one more thing is the intonation of your voice, unique. And once we fell in love with the message and the messenger, when we heard that particular voice, it gave us comfort and we knew we were in a safe spot. Isn't that a great way to put it? It was a branding. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before, but thank you. That's great. Talk about humor. We had a lady write us and say, Chuck, you can stop preaching, but never stop laughing. You're the only laughter that comes into our home.

12:00 I mean, that made me pause. It was a compliment, but it was tragic to think that. And I thought, how many homes are lacking laughter? You know, where's the fun? Where's the humor? And do we have to—if we love Christ, do we have to stop having fun? If we love Christ— A merry heart is in the Bible. Come on. It's all over it. And you've got to hide it to keep it out. And I thought, don't hide it. And let it show. And people thought, I never knew it said that. Well, it does say that. If you don't get in the way of it, let it say what it says. Exactly. And you're the same way. Too many Christians look like they were weaned on a pickle. Yeah, that's right. If you're happy, notify your face. That's right. That's right. Yeah. One of my friends said, that person is really happy down inside.

12:53 but his face hasn't found out about it. It's good. I'm about to hear a little bit of the story over lunch about the land acquisition. Oh my. The land we're sitting on right now, this building is on. It's remarkable. It's a fascinating thing that happened. It's really, I don't use the word miracle that often because you can overuse it. Otherwise, it'd be called a regular, but miracles were rare and this was as close to it as we had ever seen our church bought the property adjacent to this property but we could never get this corner and we wanted to get these seven acres to complete our our land acquisition and the owner said no that's for commercial it's going to be a million dollars an acre and we said we can't go anywhere near that so we just We asked for it three times, and they never lowered their price, so we stopped asking as a church.

13:52 Out of the blue, Cynthia said to me one day, I'm glad you're sitting down because we got a call from our developer. And he said to me, well, believe it or not, the owner of that corner wants to sell the property to Insight for Living. And I immediately thought, there's no way we're going to get seven. She said, no, wait, wait. They're going to sell it to us for $1,900,000, less than a third of the price of its original asking, and they'll do it only for us. And we've got to have the money in two weeks. Well, God allowed us to raise the money, and we bought this corner that we had wanted. It's sort of the nerve center of the city of Frisco right here. and we found ourselves sitting on the piece of land that we had tried literally for 20 years to buy. And we were never able to get it. It's this thing. You gave up trying to do it yourself, so God handed it to you.

14:46 Exactly. Yeah. You couldn't pull it off by yourself. And you deal with money all the time. That's fascinating. It must be. But to little folks like us, it seems huge, intimidating to think about taking on something like this. But, you know, we left our church in Fullerton out of debt. I left the church here in Frisco out of debt. It's just planning carefully and being disciplined to stay with it. I'm using your line there. No, that's it. Discipline is the thing. It's a marathon, as Paul would say. It is. It's not a sprint. It is. It's a long race. It's a long race. You just keep running, keep running, keep running. Every time I read the book, the tortoise wins. He beats the hare. He does. Every time I read the book. It never changes. He always wins. And I meet a lot of tortoises that have done very, very well. And no one notices them because they're tortoises. But they do a great, you know, and do a great thing.

15:41 And this ministry has been that. So talk about when you all moved to Texas. Yes, big move. From California. Yeah, that was a big move. That was in 2000. And I was the president of the seminary, of all things. Here again, another surprise. I was asked to return. And so I came to Dallas Seminary, and that was going to be a lengthy period of time, I thought. But we had a lease we had to pay off in Fullerton, and they wouldn't release us from it. They wouldn't even discount it. So Cynthia was there, and I was here, and we commuted back and forth till we got that paid off. Well, as we got near the payoff, I said to her, we've got to communicate to our team, our staff, that it's going to mean a move to Texas. Well, getting people out of California to Texas ain't that easy because they love living there.

16:38 At least they did then. And we got about 10% of our staff to move, at least to look at it. And from that group, about 1% wound up staying. So we really started from scratch when we moved to the Dallas area. So what size was the staff at that point? We were then about 90 back then. And we wound up here with about, literally, about 9 or 10 of our original people. And not all of them stayed, Dave. Some of them went back because you don't have California weather here. And you don't have the coast here. And you don't have the mountains here. I thought, well, the freeway goes up and down. That's pretty— That counts like a mountain. Yeah, that's a big elevation, but that didn't sell them. Anyway, we began to agree, look, God is in this. He's got this.

17:31 We're not going to panic. We're going to begin to get the word out on our church and other places where we're visiting and let them know we're ready for our staff to come on board. And we began to interview. and we got a magnificent staff from that experience. So again, that was 25 years ago, around the year 2000? Yeah, it was back in 2000. Yeah, about 25 years ago. In fact, we were staying at EDS at our first place to lease. We had plenty of room there and big gates came down, you know, and go up. And that was when 9-11 hit, 2002-01. And man, we thought they were going to maybe bomb that place. or something would happen, and some of our staff didn't come in. Some of us were in and couldn't get out, and it was a touch-and-go situation for us. So later on, we moved from there to another site and then to another site, and we began to realize we're spending more money on lease or rentals than we ever would on our own building.

18:36 So when we got our land, we designed our building. Cynthia designed it and had a great architect that could help us put it together. And this is what we wound up with. Wow. And now our hope is to get this place paid off. And we will. We're looking forward to that. That's the last remaining. That's it. That's the last part. Last little bit. Of that whole thing. And it'll happen. So you guys have got the goal. And I'm honored I get to be here because I'm No Debt Dave, right? So I can help you get out of debt. You're the miracle working guy. So we got Dave Ramsey here to convey that. We don't have that. I don't have that power. But I hate debt. I do have that. So I'm happy to be a part of you kicking off this campaign to your birthday is in October. Yes, yes. And so October of this year, we want to get this building paid off. That'd be wonderful. So you've got a campaign coming up to do that.

19:30 Talk about that. Yep. We're going to have that campaign underway soon. We're already getting underway on it. Our plans have been laid over the last several months. and our hope is to get the amount of money we need to get the building paid off. As of this moment, it's a little over $14 million. That sounds like a huge amount, but so did our houses at one time. So did our cars at one time. We don't look at the amount. We look at our God who is able to meet our every need. And if we're committed to it and if we stay at that commitment, we'll meet that need. I'm absolutely convinced of that. And I'm here to have you help us believe in that as well, because you see that happen all the time. Well, I do, and I've gotten to watch churches and ministries over my career, what happens to them, how they blossom when they don't have that yoke on them. It's incredible.

20:25 And it sets up for, you know, potential legacy to be right, succession planning to be right. Yes. It sets up—people start making decisions for the right reasons when they don't have a banker, because Proverbs wasn't kidding. You know, you're a slave when you're a borrower. Yes. And when you're a slave, you have a master. And Jesus said it's hard to have two masters because you're going to argue with one of them. That's right. If I'm going to argue with one, it's going to be the banker. So let's get him out of here. And that's a good plan. I like doing that. Yeah, I love it. When we paid off our house, we were sitting in the Bank of America lobby waiting for the lady to come provide the papers and we'd sign them. And she said, do you realize how rare this is? And I said, what's rare? She said, what you're doing. Here you are, a couple in your late 50s or early 60s, and you're already paying off your house. And we had bought it about eight years before.

21:24 She said, we rarely see this. And I thought the bank wouldn't be that thrilled because all that interest is going to be taken once we pay it off. But I'll tell you, the burden that was lifted is palpable. You hear that all the time. It affects leadership decisions. It affects creativity in the building. It affects everything. In ministry— It's hard to grasp. You're right. In ministry, from then on, all the money that you get that God provides goes into ministry. It doesn't go into payments or interest or whatever. It goes into ministry and vision that you can fund. Changes everything. Yeah. So our vision is vision 195. There are 195 nations in the world. And our hope is to be on every one of them and to get the message to everyone and have our representative there representing the Lord Jesus to those people under the auspices of insight for living. And we use the international students from Dallas Seminary who come knowing the culture, knowing the language, and they get their apprenticeship here, we call it, and then we release them to their country and they take the message to that country.

22:38 We're already underway. We're already into, and we soon will be more, but we're into 14 languages right now. And we'll be adding more and more. That's exciting. That's vital. When the debt is paid off, we'll be able to fund all of that without any hesitation. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, to coin a phrase, that's a great insight. Yeah, that's right. It changes everything. It was Cynthia's idea. When I first started teaching people to get out of debt, I was, you know, young in the process like we discussed. Yeah. And I'm a math nerd, so I thought it was just math. The borrower's slave to the lender, so if I pay a car payment, I don't have that money. So the master took my money. I thought it was just a math equation. And now after doing this for almost 40 years, I'm starting to see the implications because now I'm working with families that their children and even some of their grandchildren are following the things that their parents followed from me way back there. That's what we've experienced.

23:35 And what we're seeing, the generational shift when someone breaks that curse off of them, it's pretty incredible. And in a business or a ministry setting, we're starting to see, okay, when the debt is gone, yes, the math is obvious. We don't have the money going to the bank so we can do ministry with it. That math is obvious. But there's a spiritual element to slavery. And the slaves think different than free people. You're right. And they're more creative. The slaves aren't as generous as free people. Slaves don't have as good a health as free people. That's exactly right. It changes your health. that changes your relationship. So I just keep peeling the layers off this onion and realize the wisdom of Solomon was really, there's a lot of depth to that simple little proverb that we throw around so cavalier. But when people are set free and ministries are set free, like we're talking about finishing off this little debt, and it's just $14 million.

24:34 This is Texas. This is the United States. Somebody write a check. For goodness sakes, be done with this. This is silly. That would be wonderful. Not a big deal. Come on. and let's get it done. And it does set up, in our case and in your case, the ability to talk about legacy and talk about succession. Yes. And I've never liked talking about legacy as if it was about Dave. Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm the same way. But I do like talking about it through the lens of stewardship. that I want to steward what God has given me so that he gets the most glory out of the effort he put me through. And I want him to win. My job is to make sure the things he gave me to manage, and that includes the ministry of Insight for you or the ministry of Ramsey for me.

25:30 Yes. It includes that. And so I've got to steward that in such a way. So around our place, legacy means good succession planning. Legacy means, okay, what happens when Dave dies? We have a lot of these conversations. They're really awkward and uncomfortable. I don't like talking about me dying. It's not fun. I'm hearing about it quite a bit. I'm telling you. But I do it. Once a year, we have a very formal, what if Dave dies this year meeting. And I don't want to go this meeting. I want to do a Monty Python joke. I'm feeling much better. Oh, my gosh. But that is good stewardship. It is. And you're planning—that runs hand in glove with this campaign to get this place debt-free. Yes. Because that's part of good stewardship, part of the succession stewardship. You know, years ago, shortly before she died, Corrie Ten Boom attended our church in Fullerton, California. And a marvelous lady, just as lovely as you would imagine.

26:28 And you may know her personally or have known her. but I got to know her a little bit and standing at the door of the church she walked out and met my children and she said these are your children and I said yes they are some of them were jerking on her you know pulling on her thinking well some of them are right now but anyway she said let me see your hands I put my hands out and she put her little hands in mine and she said let me tell you something Pastor Fendal, you must always hold everything loosely because if you don't, it will hurt when the father pries your fingers loose and takes them from you.

27:14 And I'm sure she was thinking of Betsy in her life and her family and while she had gone through. I've never forgotten that, Dave. and I was standing at the door of a church that I loved and thinking I'll be here forever. But I realized I need to hold the church loosely. I can't get wrapped up in it. That can't be my identity. Christ is my identity. But I realized then we need to take care of things here. Some years after that, we were in a new building and I said to our elders, you know we need to pay this building off every one of them agreed every one of them we set the plan ahead or in motion we made it known to the congregation gave a special way to give to it within less than two years we were burning the mortgage of that church and there was a spirit that was electric I'm not exaggerating it was electric that came over the congregation we're free We're free.

28:23 Now we live up to our name, an evangelical free church. And we got underway in various ministries we had never been able to fund before. Same thing happened at Stonebriar. And we burnt that mortgage, stood there, and the same feeling came over us. And people stood and applauded and applauded. They were so excited. And it was like setting the congregation free again, free to one master, not to two. Exactly. And I love the way you put that. The lender is—the borrower is the lender's slave, and you're no longer enslaved. So when I left the church back October of 2024, they were free. There was no debt left. What a great feeling that is to leave it. And now with Insight for Living, our legacy is here admittedly, but this is the work of Christ.

29:25 This is Christ's message, and his message is timeless. It is free of any deadline. When I'm gone, the message goes right on. The voice goes right on. Exactly. And I love that idea. Exactly. So, yeah, legacy is, to me, it's not an ego thing. Not at all. It's a stewardship. Yeah. It goes back to— Stewarding what God has given me over all of these years to manage. That's right. And I need to manage it as powerfully as I can. It goes back to Corey's words to me. Exactly. Hold it loosely. Hold it loosely. You're not the owner. I'm not. No. I'm not. I'm not the owner. I was on—remember Robert Shuler back in the day at Cousin Cthulhu? I was a friend with Robert. Yeah, me too. And I went over there to speak one time during a book tour. And right before I got up to speak, he said, Dave, I want to do a little interview with you. And he said, so tell me, Dave, is it okay for Christians to be rich? Now, Robert was about prosperity. He liked prosperity. I understand.

30:27 And so he was expecting me to say yes. And I said, no, we're all supposed to be absolutely poverty stricken. And I think he was about to throw me off the plate. Yeah, I imagine he would. And I said, because we're not allowed to own anything, we manage it all for God. Yeah. Now, he does tell us if we manage some little things well that he's going to give us more to manage. But at no point do we become the owner. He says you're not your own. You're bought with a price. Exactly. Glorify God with your body. That's the point you were getting across. Exactly. So I had a little fun with him. And he sort of thought it was funny, but I don't think he did. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. Well, it's a wonderful thing to begin a ministry as you have done, as I have done, and to watch God bless it, you know, often in spite of us, often beyond what we would have ever planned or thought or arranged. And then little by little, you look back and say, only God could have done that.

31:27 Only God could have put that together. only God could have enlarged the tent pegs and broadened our field and he's pleased with that and it's all for his glory only God can give you 7 million dollars worth of acreage for 1.9 million only God you can't talk people into doing that that's part of the way we were able to raise that money we said to people this was 7 million dollars 3 weeks ago now it's 1.9, and it's ours. Well, I can give to that. And they gave, and we pay the land off right away. And, of course, you see that all the time. I love the stories you tell about people that think they can't do it, and they're not working together, and you've got to get their heads together, and you've got to get husbands and wives to agree, or one will be saving, that'll be spending.

32:23 Exactly. You've got to agree to it.