Greg Laurie and Chuck Swindoll on Navigating Life’s Heartbreaks

38:27 hurt him. Does this ring a bell? Yeah. Tozer. It is doubtful God can use anyone greatly until he has hurt him deeply. Yes. That's a hard one. That's a tough one. Yeah. I've had some people say, I don't believe that. Yeah. That makes God cruel. Yes. On the contrary, when you have been hurt deeply, you change great. You deepen. You deepen. You get quiet. You become... more thoughtful, more compassionate, more caring, more understanding. Yes. that is the making of a good shepherd. there's a Scottish saying, some things are better felt than tellt.

39:30 Yeah. People can tell when you have a heart. You don't get a heart by taking a course on how to get a heart. You don't read a book on here's how to develop a heart. You go through the heartbreaks of life, And out of that emerges an incredible world that never had been developed before. Yes. So that you have a capacity now that few have because you have lost someone so close to your own heart that you'll never forget it. Yeah. It prepares you to touch the lives of those who come with that empty, dreadful expression. I feel lost.

40:31 I feel like I can't go on. I feel like I've reached the end. And you can say, you're going to make it. Yeah. And let me tell you how I know you. And you can tell them your story. Yes. I love another Tozer quote, and you'll love this. May not the inadequacy of much of our spiritual experience be traced back to our habit of skipping through the corridor of the kingdom like children in the marketplace, always chattering about everything, but pausing to learn the true value of nothing. Wow. I love that quote. You've learned the true value of life and the true meaning of death and grief and sorrow and bone-deep pain. There aren't words you can use to describe what you and Kathy endured.

41:44 You may try, but only those who have lost one of their own will say, that's exactly the way it was with me. Gives you a capacity, a depth. and that may explain Greg why even though you may not have had all the academic training you may have wished you would have had or you may not have had all the breaks that you would love to have had or those first 17, 18, 20 years of your life at the knee of some godly individual wait, wait, wait you've had the Lord Jesus Christ right there in the depth of your life at moments that defied explanation. As he reached in and quietly developed you in ways you would not have been developed.

42:57 Job writes, Job 23, 10 through 12. Get this. But he knows the way that I take. Yes. When he has tried me, I will come forth as gold. Yeah. My foot has held his steps. His way have I kept and not declined. Neither have I turned back from the command of his lips. I have esteemed, prized, valued the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. That's why in deep grief, you lose your appetite. You're feeding on divine manna that comes to minister to you from the heavenlies, provided for you by the Lord your God.

43:54 I so respect you for going through it and being able to talk about it and letting it change you. I've seen people refer to it almost glibly. Oh, yeah, we lost too. No, no, no, no. Don't say it like that. Joe Bailey lost three boys, three boys. One is a baby, one older, and the other in a sledding accident, of all things. Oh, my goodness.

44:36 And Joe said he wrote a book called A View from the Hearse. I read that book. Love the book. Joe's gone now, but his son was one of our interns at Fullerton. And Joe said, some came and they talked and talked and talked and talked the whole time. I couldn't wait for them to leave. Yes. You experienced that. Yes, I did. And some came and sat by us, said very little, if anything, loved us, and I never wanted them to go away. Yeah, that's true. Isn't that great? I love that statement. Yeah. I love it.

45:23 When will we learn, say less so that you can minister more? Yes. You're giving the gospel right now, even though you're not saying a word. You're modeling it. When you get alongside people and you put your arm around them and you tell them you understand, you're helping them see a side of Christ they have not seen before. And you're not saying much at all. Yes. That's why I'm glad you—I was reluctant to get into it, not knowing how you have worked it through. But it's obviously changed you. Yes.

46:15 Well, thank you for all that you said. That was just so powerful. And I know that's going to be a blessing to so many people as it was to me personally. It was like I was given the greatest personal counseling session from the greatest preacher on the worst moment of my life. And it meant so much to me. And I'm going to go back over what you've said to me. It was very moving to me. You know, Greg, you have depth. You may feel young. You may feel, you know, overwhelmed by opportunities that open. God knows what he's doing. Yes. God knows what he's about. Yeah. He knows who he's using.

47:03 He not only knows your name, he knows the depth, the length of those tests. He plans both the depth and the length of tests. Yes. So when you stand to speak, you know what, Greg, I don't even have to be told this. You're not important at all. You are quietly amazed that they're even there. I constantly live like that. I'm constantly surprised that someone reads something I write or they listen when I speak or they enjoy things that I enjoy when I'm sharing it with them. And I just think, Lord, you're too good. How could you use a kid that wasn't even wanted like you've used me and like you're using Greg?

48:02 What an absolute privilege. Stay surprised. Yes. just stay surprised I'm convinced Graham when he stood there and watched the stadium field fill up first base and then out in the outfield and more into the bullpen they had to put him right there in Angel Stadium remember and I thought I said to Cynthia how wrong I was when I said it was so simple it was too simple you're right He knew exactly what God would have him say.

48:44 Sometimes we just need to step aside in our spirit and let him take it. Take the credit. Take the glory. Take the message. Take the opportunity. I spent too many times in my life saying no or no, I can't do radio. I don't do radio. I don't even listen to Christian radio. And Al Sanders said to me, well, many people do. And he said, can I show you a little sample? And I said, yeah, sure. Well, I took it home and played it with Cynthia listening. And I go, wow. He kind of put it together. And he said, we'll be the first broadcast that goes out where we use the live audience. Everybody else went to a studio back then.

49:37 But we're going to use—I said, you mean all the coughing and sneezing and baby crying? He said, yeah, that's real life. Yeah. And they loved that. Yeah. Oh, and he was so right. I was so wrong. And when the dear friend in our church begged me to write the book, For Those Who Hurt, I'd just spoken on it. And I said, no, I don't do books. I got my hands full doing sermons. He said, you've got to write this book, whatever it costs, I'll pay for it. I said, I don't know what it costs. I don't know how to write books. I don't do books. You've got to do this within a book. He almost yelled at me. So I said to my secretary the next day, Larry Crewson came down the aisle last night. He was flaming. I found out later his daughter had run away. He was hurting. And he said, what you said is exactly what I needed to hear.

50:33 I need to read it. and read it again and again. I finally found a publisher that would, I was nobody. I'm still a nobody, but at least I've written a few things. And back then, nobody wanted to publish it. No, but there's not a place for that. So Multnomah Press, a little press up in Oregon. John Van D. said to me, oh, we'll take this manuscript. We'll make this into a gift book. well indeed they did along with second wind killing giants pulling thorns uh growing strong in the seasons of life come before winter all of those from little excerpts of things i've been writing our church under a heading of think it over i never dreamed it would ever go into it Yeah.

51:27 I'm telling you, Greg, I never dreamed I would ever be a writer. Ever. Ever. That's the truth. I'm not trying to be humble. I'm saying I didn't have the thought of that. And it was like, good night. You're kidding. That's the first response when they said, man, these books are flying off the shelf. When's the next one? I said, I've already written a book. That's the thing. But they want more books. You know how that goes. Yeah. Greg. there's always a place for anyone who will truly let God lead his life. Stay out of the way.

52:23 Lie low. Stay surprised. We don't need agents. We don't need big-time people out front. We don't need flags. We don't need to promote our own stuff and carry our books in the trunk of our cars and beg people to buy them. No, no. God will take care of them. He brought David out of the sheepfolds from following the youths great with young. He brought him to feed Jacob, his people, and Israel, his inheritance. Get this. So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart, and he guided them with skillful hands. Yes. Psalm 78 ends with those beautiful verses. Wow. Took him from the sheep. and he felt oil running down his neck, and he thought, what's this? You know, average guy would run down to Nordstrom and start buying crowns because they're going to be king.

53:27 Yeah. Nope, David went right back with his sheep. That's right. Next time we see him, he's fighting a giant. not to be seen, but because this uncircumcised Philistine has no right to talk about God's people like he's been doing. And he took that sling and he slung that rock, hit it right between the running lights, knocked it right down, took that head and walked up to Saul and said, well, here it is. Saul goes who is this David was never impressed with himself and then Saul you know began to chase him 12-13 years David said what have I done said to Jonathan what have I done what have I done against Saul nothing why is he trying to kill me it's all part of learning Dave you're learning to king it You're learning how kings live.

54:29 You'll continue to be shot at and speared and talked about and criticized. Stay at it. Stay at it. Cynthia and I have the favorite line, stay at it. Yeah. Stay at it. Like you and Kathy. Yes. So you lost your boy. Yeah. Finally got back on your feet. Was there a difference in your preaching? Yes, you asked me if I took time off. I took a little time off, but I had this crusade scheduled two weeks after this event happened. Oh, my. And people asked me, well, are you going to do the crusade? And I said, of course, I'm going to do the crusade. Because when I was preaching, because, you know, the Bible says, Jesus said, there is joy in the presence of the angels over one sinner that comes to repentance. You know, I think that people in heaven may know more than we think they know.

55:26 And there is an awareness in heaven of sinners coming to repentance. Every time a person repents, heaven rejoices. And I thought, you know, is my son watching me from heaven? I don't know. I know the Lord's watching me. I know my son is in heaven. That's a good statement. We don't know. Yeah, we don't know. We talk about people watching and all that. Boy, there's seen a lot of bad stuff if they're watching this earth, you know. but they're aware of people coming to Christ. Oh, yeah. And so I found that was the one place where I found relief was when I was preaching and I wasn't thinking about myself or thinking about my pain. I was focused on the Lord and on the gospel and on people hearing the gospel. that that was I found a strangely a renewed strength okay a willingness to do things I would have never done before a willingness to take risks let me ask you something here yeah did you start fearing for your other children uh well I have one other son oh you have one other son yeah I did you did you start thinking oh be careful be careful oh yeah for sure oh yes yes Yes, of course, I was very aware of that.

56:41 Premonitions like, this could be dangerous. Yeah, but it was more just, because my son, my younger son, Jonathan, he also had been a prodigal, and his brother, Christopher, the night before he went to heaven, said to Jonathan, Jonathan, you need to get right with the Lord. What's it going to take? and after Christopher died, that's, I'm not saying God took Christopher so Jonathan would come to Christ, but it was more like, despite that horrible tragedy, that is what it took to open Jonathan's eyes, and not only did Jonathan recommit his life to the Lord, but he felt it called a ministry, and so it was, you could see how God works these things, you know, I love your teaching on the sovereignty of God and Romans 8, 28 in particular. I never get tired of thinking about Romans 8, 28. Neither do I. It's just so rich and deep. It isn't all good, but it all works together for good.

57:45 Yeah. All things work together. They do. For good. They do. I mean, the classic example is Joseph to his brothers. You meant this for evil. God had met it for good. But there are things that happen in our life that are bad. I'll always think of this as a bad thing. I'll always think of this as a tragedy, the death of my son. However, I would also acknowledge that many good things have come into my life and out of this that God has brought. So I don't have to understand all of that, but as Scripture says, all things are His servants. And so I just believe that it's in process. And I, you know, there are times, Chuck, after it happened, I'd be driving along, and I would have a memory. Something would remind me of Christopher. And I would say, I'll never see him again. I'll never hear his voice again.

58:39 And I would start going into a dark hole. And I would literally preach to myself. And I would literally say, Greg, shut up. Yeah, you're going to see him again. Yeah, I said, the Bible says, oh, boy, I am the resurrection and the life. He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. Whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. You're going to see your son again. You are. Immediately as I would just quote this scripture to myself, it would lift me out of that pit because I would get a heavenly perspective. And so I've tried to take this horrible event and use it as a tool to help people and to show them that God can walk with you through the most unbelievable difficulties in life. Okay, switch over. Yes. What would you do differently if you had these 50 years to live over again? Wow, I've never been asked that before.

59:34 You don't have to be profound. I would hang out with you more. What would I do differently? Well, we'd have fun, I'll tell you that. Yeah, I don't really, you know, I don't want to say that I wouldn't do anything differently. But for the most part, I don't know that I would do anything. So you don't have many regrets? Well, yes, little. I mean, things here and there, but there's not any big thing in life where I would say I should have done this. No, I can't say I have any major regrets. Okay. That's probably not good. Billy Graham once was asked, you know, what he would do differently. He said, I would preach half as much. I would spend more time praying, more time studying the Word of God and telling the Lord how much I love them. Well, I can certainly say that.

1:00:26 Sure. Should I have prayed more throughout my life? Yes. Everybody could say that. Have I worried too much at times? Absolutely, yes. Have I been impulsive at times and run ahead of the Lord? Sure, I have. But by and large, I would say that I found the will of God and I've sought to walk in it. Yeah. And so I can't say I would do anything differently for the most part. What about you?

1:00:57 I would have said yes more often sooner than no. To what? opportunities, open doors, stepping into something that I never dreamed I would do. I wouldn't be as reluctant. Yeah. I think that goes back to my very, very early years. Yes. I'm not trying to excuse it, but my brother was not reluctant. Man, he would take on, you know, he went to mission field 33 and a half years in Buenos Aires. And when you go down there, when I go down there, I'm known as Orville's brother, you know?

1:01:52 And he just bore right into it. Yeah. I was a little too cautious sometimes. I was a little too strong with my children. I should have been quicker to say, yeah, that'd be fine. Yeah. That'd be fine. Cynthia helped me with that. She said to me one day, you know, honey, you and I are both really cautious about our children. And for that reason, we started saying no right away to most things they want to do. We need to stop that. And I came across the whole idea of a yes face when I wrote my book on grace. Yes.

1:02:44 And we needed to develop a yes face. And I think I probably frowned too much rather than gave my children a yes face. and told him, I would have probably told him earlier how proud I am of them, how pleased I am with them. I would have affirmed more and criticized less. Wow. I would have been more patient. Yeah. Why are we so impatient? It's just, our Lord is so patient with us, and we turn around and expect the next thing to perfection from others. Or, so they failed at this.

1:03:38 Okay, did the world stop turning? Did the sun stop burning? I mean, life goes on. There are so many people who long to help us do what we do, and we can be so independent. Yeah. I'd be less independent. I'd be quicker to say, I need, or could you help, or would you be a part of this, or would you lead this? Would you take over that? or I'm convinced you'd be better at this than I would be, and I would mean that, and I would lay it, and I think the ministry would have just been on rollerblades rather than sometime on skids trying to get going because I was trying to do too much myself. Yeah. You gave a message a couple of years ago, maybe, where you talked about three things that a preacher faces. One was loneliness. One was disappointment. Another was being the target of attacks. And four, and then you've been talking about that, realizing one's mistakes. You've talked about that quite candidly. Right. Have you felt in your ministry from the beginning to this present day a loneliness, or do you feel less of that maybe as you reach out and let people enter your world? When I let people enter in, I don't have that loneliness. When I don't do that, I do feel that loneliness. Yes. Very insightful observation on your part. I've now boiled it down to four major temptations. Okay. And they're easy to remember because they all start with the same letter S. Okay. They hiss like a snake. Yes. The first is sloth. Yeah. You can really get lazy in ministry. You'd get better at your golf game than you are at your preaching. You'd get better at fishing than you are working with people and on and on. You can really get slothful.

1:05:49 Guard against sloth. Second, silver. Boy, the money can turn your head. Yeah. They'll offer this and now you say no and they'll offer more money if you'll do it. No, more money. And then you start reckoning with, well, I could certainly use that amount. And then you get tempted. Start thinking of things you do for money. I've stopped taking money for funerals decades ago. Yeah. I don't take money to bury people. They're in grief. I've sent money back to people. My mentor, Bob Newkirk, when I was in the Marine Corps, meant so much to me when he died. His sweet darling daughter named Maria got a hold of me, and Marie said, could you do Daddy's funeral?

1:06:42 I said, oh, I'd love to. The eulogy. I said, I can't come to Colorado Springs, but I'll do it, and I'll send it to you in video. She said, I can't tell you how much you would mean. Well, she sent $300. and I wrote back, I tore it up, I said, Marie, I could never take a penny after all he did for me. And I've regularly done that to stay away from the lure of doing it for the money, a big wedding, maybe a big gathering, maybe, well, would you do this for $20,000? No, no, I can't do it. And no amount of money will turn my head. Watch out for silver. Third is self.

1:07:31 Self. Guard against anything that promotes you, especially your own tendency to build yourself up, to present yourself as better than you are, or to remind people of great things, or to drop names, or on and on we can do. Martin Luther was getting ready to deliver the Diet of Worms, his message there. And he was, you know, in front of all the prelates and all that, all the big shots from the church. And one of his friends, just before he walked onto the platform, said to him, Oh, Brother Martin, aren't you afraid?

1:08:16 Martin said, Luther said, more than the Pope and all his cardinals. I fear most that great pope's self. lie low give the other person the credit acknowledge your own staff if she wrote the brochure tell them she wrote it I didn't write this it's very well written of course she's very gifted but you can get credit for everything that comes out of the church and you've done very little in it pass along the credit. And a fourth, of course, is sex. That pornography has eaten us up, Greg.

1:09:07 I don't know how many men in ministry have finally confessed it all started when I pulled the shades and locked the door, turned on the computer, and there it was. I've never viewed pornography so I don't know what it looks like but it must be very appealing very satisfying or something and I say to people look if you would just stop that today it's never too late to start doing what is right one of my favorite sayings I came up with it several years ago. It's never too late to start doing what is right. Start now. Don't go into all the things you've not done, all the things you should have done.

1:10:02 Start now. Stop viewing anything that is even near pornography. Don't go to the films. Don't read the books. Don't look at the magazines. Don't look at the things online. And I was doing a motorcycle ride, and my son and I wanted to go to Tioga here in Texas where they have the best barbecue. And it's right on butcher paper, and it's really the old stuff. And I looked up Tioga. I typed it into my computer and click.

1:10:38 Sex. Letters this high came on the screen. the pornography people had found that most people don't spell Tioga correctly the place we were going to go. And because they misspell it, they've got all the sex channels plugged in. And so the first thing you get when you misspell it, Now apparently I did when I first tried is that you go right in the sex and you punch that button and you're right in. I do not, I have never had dinner alone with a single woman or a married woman unless my wife was there. I've never driven in a car without my wife present unless someone was bringing me to work or taking me home from work.

1:11:40 I've never sat on the bed at the hospital where a woman was there. I've never counseled a woman alone without leaving the door open or having an intern sitting there with me. I do not give myself any leeway because I know that is a major weakness in every man. I was at a one more comment. Navigator Conference years ago, Lawrence Sanny, the new president, was interviewing an older gentleman fresh off the mission field. He must have been in his 80s. And he sort of hobbled up to the microphone and Lawrence put his arm around him. I didn't know the man, but Lawrence knew him well. And he said, after all the things we've talked about, I've got to ask you this. When did you overcome the lure of sexual temptation?

1:12:41 I'll never forget his answer. Well, Lord, it hasn't happened yet. No. Here's this 85-year-old guy still fighting the same old battles. Yeah. Greg, we will fight it till we're dead. And we must. I don't care how old you get, Greg. You're never going to get past sexual temptation. Yeah. Of the four, that's the strongest. Yeah.

1:13:15 Most men don't usually fall because of a sloth or silver or self. But this one. Yeah. You've seen it. Yes, I have. and it's an allurement that is always there. Yeah. If you were to give one last sermon, what would your text be and what would your topic be? Oh my. Oh. I've never been asked this. I believe I would speak on the grace of God. Yes.

1:14:08 I want to be known as a man of grace. Yeah. I really do. It would revolve around Christ, because that's where grace originates. it would take us to the cross it would probably be from Romans maybe either chapter 5 or chapter 8 would be the text maybe both for you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ who though he was rich and for our sake he became poor that we through his poverty might be rich that's Corinthians but that kind of message and I would talk about you can know this grace personally and you don't have to clean up anything. You don't have to correct anything. You don't have to dress up in any way. You don't have to change anything.

1:15:00 All you've got to do is come to Christ. Let Jesus become your channel to God. Let him become your own personal Lord and Savior. Amen. And he will bring in the grace like you've never had it before. Yeah. And he will take the irksomeness out of your life. He will take the impatience out. And little by little, you'll see changes come that you don't deserve. Blessings come that you don't earn. It's all grace. And I'd camp on grace. Yeah, I love that. I'd drive it home. I might even do an acrostic on G-R-A-C-E. I've never done that before, but that comes to mind. I love that. Okay, now just on an unrelated subject, when you're hungry, maybe after you've preached a sermon, and there's a certain food you like, maybe it's not even good for you, what is your favorite food?

1:16:01 You mean literal food? Like food like hamburger, pizza, barbecue? I would get a bowl of homemade chili. Oh, nice. I would—since this chili's the best ever, and I would unfreeze that. We keep it frozen. I would freeze it and I would eat that. That's delicious. Some Fritos and a homemade chili glass of iced tea. Have you ever been to In-N-Out Burger? Oh, yeah. Do you like it? Oh, yeah. How do you order your burger at In-N-Out Burger? I order usually a double-double, I admit, with everything on it. Sometime I even order it, my kids have taught me this, animal style. I get animal style too. That's really good, isn't it? It is good. It's all over your wrists, all over your hands. Yeah, it's delicious. Yes.

1:16:52 I love them. What is your favorite movie? Like, here's how I define my favorite movie. If I'm flipping channels on television and I see a movie maybe I've seen many times that if I stay and keep watching it until the commercial, that's a favorite movie. Yeah, we have a lot of them. I do, too. My latest is Lincoln. Oh. I could see Lincoln every other week for five weeks in a row. Ten weeks in a row. You told an amazing story about Lincoln, about they had the contents of what was in his pockets. And he had, I think, a pocket watch and a handkerchief. Yeah, I do love that illustration. And then there was a little newspaper clipping. What was that about?

1:17:42 how great Abraham Lincoln was. Yeah. And it was yellowed with age. And it tells me that even Lincoln, in quiet, lonely moments, would turn to that box and read at least someone believed in him. Yeah. He was horribly criticized. He was. He was called an ape, a baboon, an idiot. I mean, these sophisticated Northeasterners took him on with both fists. He plowed right on.

1:18:19 I would love to have a dinner with Abraham Lincoln. Well, that's a good question. Let's expand that. If you were going to have dinner with me, Abraham Lincoln, who else would you like to invite? If I could understand him, Winston Churchill would be another one. I think I would enjoy time with... Ronald Reagan. Yes. I would enjoy that. And maybe one more would be... Spurgeon. Yes. I would enjoy asking Spurgeon, how did you do it? So prolific was Spurgeon that when he died, they began to publish a sermon a week.

1:19:14 Yeah. They did this every week, never took a break, for 25 years, and they ran out of money. but they never ran out of sermons. Is that the Metropolitan Tabernacle? It was, yep. He never, he was so prolific. After all of those sermons were published, there were many more they could have, but they didn't have the mind to do it. In my office, I have a bust of Spurgeon, a bust of Churchill, and also a bust of D.L. Moody, another one of my favorite preachers. Yeah, Moody would be interesting too. Okay, so Lincoln's one of your favorite movies. Yep, he is. Any other movies? Sure. I like Ben-Hur with Charlton Heston. Yes, that was wonderful.

1:20:09 But I also like Tombstone. You ever seen Tombstone? I did, yep. I'm not a big movie buff, but I will go a couple times a year, you know, if something is out that's really, really good. Kids tell me how much it is, how great it was. I love military movies. Yeah. I enjoy... Saving Private Ryan. Yeah, I loved it. That was great. Yeah. That first scene of Private Ryan is as close to real combat as you'll ever see. I've heard that. Closest you'll ever see. I loved how it ended where it has the man starts and ends with the man at a cemetery, and he's going to visit the grave of the officer who died saving him, and he asks his grandchildren, I believe, you know, something to the effect of, did I live a meaningful life?

1:21:08 Yes. And I thought that was an interesting way to enter that story. Yes. another one is hold on the one on the Holocaust oh yeah it's Schindler's powerful I could have saved one more I wept in it why do you think there's a rise of anti-Semitism right now that's the most wicked return of racism I've ever seen. Yeah, and it's stronger than ever. I mean, the Jews have had it against them all alone. Yeah. They get shot for no reason at all. Yeah. Their synagogues get scandalized or...

1:21:57 attacked and messed up more than anything. Yeah. Any other churches do. Yeah. And it's stronger today than maybe since the World War II. It seems like it's made a comeback. Yeah, it's not let up. I know you love music. I know that you used to sing. I do. In a boys kind of—not a choir. Would it be a boys choir? Yeah, we had a boys quartet. Boys quartet. Yeah, I sang it. So like when you're just driving around and you're going to sing a song, what songs do you sing? There will often be songs on grace. They will be usually the words of a hymn. Yeah. I love memorizing the words, and I quote them to Cynthia in the evening.

1:22:49 Here's one you've never heard. Majestic sweetness sits enthroned upon the Savior's brow. His head with radiant glory's crown, his lips with grace or flow, his lips with grace or flow. He saw me plunged in deep distress and flew to my relief. For me, he bore the shameful cross and carried all my grief and carried all my grief. To him, I owe my life and breath and all the joys I have. He makes me triumph over death and will save me from the grave. And will save me from the grave. Since from his bounty I receive such proofs of love divine, had I a thousand hearts to give, Lord, they would all be thine. They would all be thine.

1:23:49 That song sums up your life, I think, in many ways, doesn't it? Pardon me. Doesn't that song sum your life up? I mean, that to me is like it sum your life up, the emphasis on grace. Yeah. I will sing hymns, and I will sing Amazing Grace, and I will sing Oh for a Thousand Tongues. Yes. I will sing And Can It Be. I will sing Shall We Gather at the River, where bright angels' feet have trod, with its crystal tide forever flowing from the throne of God. Yes. Yes, we'll gather at the river, the beautiful, beautiful river. We'll gather with the saints at the river that flows from the throne of God. I quoted that at Paul Salhamer's funeral. I miss Paul to this day.

1:24:43 I love Paul. You also, when you were a young preacher, you worked with Ray Stedman. I did. He's one of my favorite authors. Oh, I love him. And there was another young man that was a part of that group, Luis Palau. Yes, he was. Ray went to South America and came back and said to the Gib Martin and me, he said, Hey, I've invited another guy to join us. We were his first two interns. And we said, Great. He said, His English is not perfected yet, but I think he's really got an evangelism gift. What's his name? Luis. Not Louis. Luis Palau. He has little twin babies. His wife's name is Patricia. Two days later, they walked in the door and we met Luis, and he was an intern with us. Wow.

1:25:35 With Ray Steadman. Ray Steadman was a really gifted communicator, too. Love Ray Steadman. One of my mentors. Yes, and Dwight Pentecost, you... I served him for four and a half years. I love everything he's written. Boy, you've got depth. You really have depth if you really enjoy him. the Dwight Pentecost, Stan Toussaint, Bruce Waltke, Howard Hendricks. I'm telling you, I said it's a feat of giants. And Greg, this is not an exaggeration. I sat right in the center in the front, even though I was accepted on probation, because I didn't have all the degrees that I needed to get in. And for two years, they kept me on probation. Then they let me go when they all my grades. But anyway, I thought I had to sit in the back if I'm on probation. But I didn't.

1:26:28 I could sit anywhere I was. So I sat in the front in the center. When the classes were over, I often couldn't move. Wow. And I would just sit there and weep. Thank you. how did I ever get in this school? How did I ever get a seat, a chair of my own, and a desk in this school? Yeah. How could I possibly be allowed to study here?

1:27:09 And when I graduated, I just cried my eyes out. First thing my parents came to that I had been a part of. Wow. my graduation seminary. They didn't stay for the dinner, but they came for the graduation. I said to Cynthia, look who's here. I don't know what to make of it. They had never been to anything I'd done. Wow.

1:27:36 Anyway, I wish you could have been with me. I wish you could have been sitting right there by me. Yes. Well, I can read their books. I'm telling you. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And when you see Bruce Waltke cradle the Old Kittle, Old Testament, Hebrew Bible, and read from it, whether it's Hebrew or English, he can read like you're reading a novel. He would read it through and look up and there'd be tears coming out of his eyes. Wow. He went to Harvard, got his second PhD. They offered him a teaching position before he graduated. And he said, no, thank you. There's a little school in Dallas that I'm committed to.

1:28:30 And they said, no, you haven't heard the offer. He said, I don't need to hear the offer. And he went back to Dallas and came back to teach us three years. You were there at just the right moment. Oh, man, he was wonderful. That's great. You would have loved him. I've never even heard of him. Waltke, W-A-L-T-K-E. Did he write? He's written some. Okay. Yep. Are there recordings of his messages? There may be. Okay. Soft, easy voice, almost feminine. He's just, when he would preach, I would like melt. Had Robinson. and Howie Hendricks and Don Campbell. And so one after another in that chapel, I'm just like drinking it in. And the guest preachers, J. Vernon McGee.

1:29:24 Oh, I love J. Vernon McGee. And Stedman. Of course. And Dr. McGee, Dr. Mitchell. And Richard Sumi, one of my favorites. And it was like a dream. I could go on and on about that, Greg. Excuse me for saying more than you asked me to say. But I will never get over Dallas Seminary and the impact in my life. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. Well, in my way, you know, getting to know you, Billy Graham, Dr. Dobson. Well, you're well read. You're well read. That's a secret. Yeah, it is. Well, it helps. It helps immensely. I feel like I've been sitting at the feet of a giant listening to you. It adds depth to your pulpit.

1:30:21 My concern, Chuck, is a young generation of preachers. I'm wondering, where's the next generation of Chuck Swindolls and David Jeremiahs Jeremiah's and people that love the Word of God and love to open the Word of God. I just hear a lot of preaching. I've got to believe that they're hidden away and they will emerge. Yes. Where was I in 1945? You never heard of me in 55. We got married in 55.

1:30:54 We'll celebrate 71 years next month. Congratulations. Congratulations. Pray for Cynthia. Yes. She suffers with dementia. Yeah. And slowly I'm watching that beautiful mind fade.

1:31:22 I hold her in my arms every day. I caress her I tell her what she means to me we had such a marvelous romantic marriage and fun and travel and so many of the things that she came up with and they worked out beautifully and we were able often to take one or more of our kids when they were married and they came along and oh, it was so great. So my advice to you, love Kathy. Yes. Tell her often a much. Set aside time for romance.

1:32:14 Flirt a weekend or two or a few weeks of the year and do something really expensive and really tell her it's for you. This is for you. I can never, ever repay you. So this is for us to enjoy together.

1:32:34 Because she may not always be exactly as she is today. And you will never forget those times. I'm so glad Sinta and I did that. Greg, it is an absolute pleasure to know you And to see you, though you are young and have grown through the years, to see you stay so committed, so in love with Jesus and still reading, still probing the theology, still preaching faithfully and delivering on a regular basis the truth of God's Word. don't ever stop until you have to. That's when I stopped. I was 90.

1:33:26 I'd finished the five messages out of 2 Timothy, which I had to memorize. You memorize them loosely, you know. You don't memorize them word line by line. But I wanted to take 2 Timothy because it's Paul's final swan song. And I stepped down from the pulpit at age 90 and left the church after 26 years. You've been at your church? 52 years. Good for you. Well, thank you. Thank you for taking the time. And the same to you, Greg. My pleasure, of course. I really mean that. Let me pray.

1:34:06 Dear Father, thank you for your grace that found us when we were not looking and saved us when we were unworthy. and changed us when we were so stubborn, and softened us when we were so hard. Thank you for giving us such magnificent wives to help shape our lives and to give us someone to love, to learn from, to care about, and to care for. Thank you for our families, for Greg's sons and for the one who left and the one who's still with him.

1:34:58 Bless them abundantly as he and Kathy continue to live for you. Lift your name up through his words as he speaks them, whether from a pulpit or quietly with a friend, or in gatherings where he's asked to speak.

1:35:18 May he lie low and let Christ be exalted and use him mightily in ways he couldn't even imagine right now. Yes. and bless millions through him, I pray. Thank you for these fleeting moments we've had together. They mean so much to us. They make us love you more, Lord. and make us love one another more as well. In the name of Christ.