Pastoral Margins: Finding Balance in Ministry and in Life

0:08 Well, good morning. Thanks for being here. Again, I'm having a great time being with you guys and appreciate you being here. I'm going to sort of share my random thoughts and experiences over the course of a life so I've been in I've been in a pastor's home and a pastor my whole life all I know there's never been a time I wasn't connected with ministry on some level I was born My mom and dad were waiting for me to be born for us to then move almost immediately to Brazil. And I've never forgiven them for that because if, had I been born in Brazil, I'd have dual citizenship. It would have saved me so much red tape through the years.

1:05 But anyway, they, but we didn't stay down there long, came back to the States. So I grew up in a pastor's home way out in the boonies in Western Kentucky for the most part until I was 15. And we moved to 8 Mile and Van Dyke in Detroit. And I literally went to the same school Eminem went to. I graduated. He did not. But so, yeah, I mean, I'm just ministry has been all I know. and you know, and I mean, you think about, I grew up in the South and in the North. I grew up in the country and in the city. I grew up in the first world and the third world. I mean, it's hard for me to ever meet anybody who's just like so far outside of my experience. I don't have some point of contact. So I would just tell you in all that, the Lord has been so good.

2:07 And I did not in any way grow up resenting being in ministry, my dad being in ministry. I loved it. I loved hanging out with preachers. My dad was absolutely wonderful. I think he did it really, really well. He was my best friend. Loved my dad dearly. Preached his funeral when he died in 2009. And I miss him every day, but I've never once mourned him. because I get to spend eternity with him. A lot of times I want to pick up the phone and call him, tell him something, and I go, oh, I can't. You know, he's with the Lord. But I've had an incredible life. I got married very young. Tony and I got married just a few days after I turned 21, and she was barely 20. And so we've been married 45 years, raised two sons.

3:05 Both of them are in ministry. So it's sort of the family business. And I don't have the experience of being awful or anything like that. And maybe some of you have. I know that happens. But I do want to tell you sort of how to stay out of it. Just some observations that I've made along the way that maybe have helped to you. I'll tell you the very first thing is you have to reach the settled conclusion that there is no inherent conflict in being a pastor and being a husband or a dad. There's no inherent conflict in it because God called you to both. and he could not call you to two things that are mutually opposed that he that would make no sense if god has made you a pastor and a husband a pastor and a father that those things work together for your good and his glory and there's a way for you to do it in a way that brings honor and glory him. And you have to start there because I think we've been conditioned. We live in this, in this culture where first of all, we hear everybody's opinion on everything all the time.

4:34 And we're like Tanya is a part of this Facebook group of, uh, sort of denominational group of wives in ministry and man, she shows me stuff. I just can't believe where they talk about being ministry wives and how awful it is and how terrible it is. And, uh, I know that's there in that sentiment, but what I'm telling you is you, you have to really come to a settled belief that God has called me to do these things. And there's a way for me to do them. that is not crushing. It's to the contrary, it's glorifying to him. Doesn't mean it's not hard. And it doesn't mean that sometimes you're, you know, you're not going to have to make tough decisions. You're going to feel torn and pulled in different directions, but those are situational conflicts. That's not an inherent conflict. You see what I'm saying? That's like, okay, where do I put my time here? Uh, and at this moment and for this day, but if God called you to do both, there's a way for you to do both and bring honor and glory to him. Uh, so begin there begins with that conviction. Okay. I can do this. The other thing is you really do need the conviction that God expects me desires for me and will help me be filled with the spirit.

6:05 I mean, the spirit-filled life really is the key to so many things. And I'm not a Keswick guy, the deeper life thing. I just think that this is a conscious decision every day of your life to be filled with the spirit. Ephesians 5 basics here where he just says, be being filled with the spirit. don't be drunk with wine we're in a success but be being filled with the spirit he uses that strange construction and there's even debate grammatically whether that's a middle voice or a passive voice is it being filling yourself with the spirit or is it passive be filled with the spirit i say it's sort of both uh i don't think it's just one or the other i think being filled with the spirit is a choice you make to be yielded to the spirit. And it's also something God does for you and in you. So I think both things are true. But as I said yesterday in the, in the, uh, uh, panel thing that we did is there's just a shortcut to see if you really are filled with the spirit. And if you're showing the fruit of the spirit and it's to ask the people you live with and work with? Are you a joy to be around? And I would tell you if the answer to that question is no, or if you fear the answer to that question, then you need to make some basic changes in your life where you're fun to be around. Years ago, I asked, it was when the boys were young. My sons are now 43 and 41. One of them is a pastor. One of them is the director of a real large family camp ministry. And they're just incredible men, incredible husbands. I'm so very, very proud of them. When they were young, one time I asked Tanya, I said, hey, what's your favorite time of the day? She said, oh, when you come home. She said, when you come home and you come in the door and you're doing that crazy Ricky Ricardo impression, Lucy, I'm home. And

8:15 And you come in and you do that fake clogging thing you do. I can't dance, but so I come in and act like I can clog. She says, oh, it doesn't matter. What's been going on in our lives, you know, it just elevates us. She said, you know, we rise to your level when you come in like that. I said, wow, that's great. I said, what's the least favorite part of your day? She said, when you come home.

8:41 And you're not like that. because sometimes you come home and you've had a lousy day and you make sure you share it and you bring it in and it doesn't matter how we've been having a great time and suddenly man you we she said we will always match your level whatever your mood is becomes the mood of our home and she said it's amazing Thank you. that the same guy can do both things Yeah, that's hard to hear.

9:21 There have been times, Tanya, just spoken like with the voice of God to me. you know that was one of those times okay um yeah i don't get to do that and it just made me see the importance of setting a tone in my home and i i made the commitment okay i'm going to do this relentlessly. God designed men to give everything we've got. And I'm going to make sure that the first moments of the day that she's with me are great moments. And the first moments in the afternoon when we see each other are great moments. And the last moments we spend awake at night before we go to sleep are great. There are other times we're going to deal with stuff.

10:17 we have to deal with stuff, but I just intentionally set those moments aside. And I want to make sure that they're wonderful. So I get up really early in the morning. Tanya does not. So like when I don't leave the house, I'm still there when she wakes up. We have a routine. I always, like I'm upstairs in my study. I hear, when I get up in the morning, and I come out of our bedroom, I close the door because I'm going to have lights on and everything else. So I close the door. When I'm upstairs studying, you know, a few hours later, I hear the door open. I always stop whatever I'm doing, and I go down the stairs, and I tell her how beautiful she is. And I do think, I think the sleepy version of my wife is the most beautiful version of my wife.

11:09 I love it. And, you know, I go down the stairs, we greet each other sweetly, hug, we kiss. There's a pat on the bottom that happens. Then I give her one back.

11:31 I mean, it's just sweet. It's sweet. And then she goes back in the bedroom. I go get her coffee. I make her coffee every morning. So I go get her coffee. I make it exactly I don't drink coffee. I do drink espresso. So I do my own thing upstairs. Downstairs I make her coffee. I don't know how much milk she wants in it. And how she wants it sweetened. Bring it to her in bed. And just encourage her in the day. And then go back to my study. And she has her time with the Lord and everything. So we make those moments great. When I come home, like I'm teaching at Southern, it's a 45 minute to an hour drive, depending on construction. and traffic, but I make sure that in that drive home, I shed myself of anything that's bugging me. And I do not walk in the door with it. And I walk in the door excited to see her and happy and ask her how her day was. And I listen, you know, we guys, we say, how's your day? We want fine.

12:37 no woman's going to do that that's just not the way they communicate and you know so i listen to her and i encourage her those moments are good at night i'll also tell you years ago i made the decision this isn't i can't quote you chapter and verse for this i can't tell you that it's sin to do anything else i will tell you this has been a game changer in my life my marriage we made the decision to always go to bed together and it's been such a good healthy decision so I don't know around seven o'clock in the afternoon I mean in the evening we'll say okay what time you want to go to bed so we know both of us know how to wrap up our stuff at the same time and 99% of the time we do it every now and then there's some exigence that requires, I've got to deal with this.

13:34 But 99% of the time, we're going to bed. Same time, we sort of plan it. Look, first of all, bad stuff can happen when men stay up late at night after their wives go to bed. And you all know what I'm talking about. Just eliminate that. Eliminate that temptation. Go to bed with your wife. And my experience is men don't have the same level of temptation. Get up as early as you want. Get up and I make sure that in the morning I get up, my very first thing, I don't do anything else before.

14:12 I mean, I do, you know, wash my face, that kind of thing. But then my first order of business is going to be my time with the Lord. I don't do anything else before I do that. and if I got to catch a plane early I get up 30 minutes to an hour earlier than I need to in order to do that I'm going to do it and like I said yesterday I do the McShane plan, read through the scriptures write in the Bible have my prayer time, prayer journal and I like to do the New York Times puzzles after that, sort of the next thing I do sort of get my brain going and I have a routine and that helps me. That routine does sometimes get encroached on but I make sure I maintain the routine as best I can. Just that discipline in my life has been a great help.

15:07 I'll put it this way. My assumption is not to trust myself. And so I've just built stuff in my life to eliminate opportunities for temptation and sin. And it's, I just think that's a good posture to have in your life. And I think about holiness. I really want to be holy, not the fake kind of holiness of walking around a certain way. And I decided I wanted it to matter more to me to be a godly man than to look like a godly man.

15:50 You know, we can get so caught up in looking godly to other people that we're really not worried about godliness. We're worried about what other people think. Well, I just said, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to concern myself of being genuinely godly, loving the Lord Jesus with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. And so, you know, that's what I do. And I also now, as of a year, last year, I got convicted about some physical things. I dropped 40 pounds, started working out. So then I typically go to the gym, work out for an hour in the morning. And again, that's been a great spiritual discipline to me as well. And I'm not, remember Paul said bodily exercise is of a little value. godly exercise, you know, greater value, but they're both good and they're both good. And you don't have to do one to the exclusion of the other. So just maintaining those disciplines in my life have been really, really healthy and helpful. Uh, and I would tell you to build disciplines into your life. I'm not by nature, a disciplined person. You need to know that.

16:59 Hear me say, this is not who I am. I am scatterbrained. It's hard for me to focus on one thing. You would not believe how many times I start something and don't finish it. So when you hear me tell you this, I don't want you thinking, well, that's who you are. You heard my speech on personality, right? Personality is not an excuse for anything. I have to fight against my personality and you do too. You might have different struggles than me, but you've still got struggles with your personality. You've got to build in your life ways to overcome that. That might be the way you talk to your wife. It might be the way you treat your kids, but you need to identify those struggles and say, how can I build into it ways that will help me, uh, encourage them and bless them. And I would tell you, if you're a parent of small children, children at home, you really need to make it your goal for them to enjoy your ministry.

18:07 It's just so important that they grow up not hating the fact that their dad is in ministry. We really worked on this. And I'll just share with you some things that I did and Tanya did that I think helped. One is we took completely off of them this deal about being the pastor's kid. i remember michael one time he was like maybe 10 11 and he came in people somebody at our church had said something to him about i can't believe you're doing that you're the pastor's kid he came in telling tanya that somebody said that that's just not fair and she said you're exactly right she said let me take off you completely any concern that you got to live a certain way because your dad is the pastor. She said, it's much more serious than that. He said, what? She said, the fact that you're the pastor's kid is irrelevant. She said, you're a son of the king.

19:13 That's what you got to come. That's what you need to concern yourself with. Not your earthly father, your heavenly father. And whoever said that to you, They're looking at the wrong thing too, but ignore that. And we really did point our kids to, hey, you're only going to answer to me for a little while in this life. You're going to answer to your heavenly father for forever. And we entrust you to him. And I tried to make decisions that reflected that value. I did things that built into my son's lives. the fact that they mattered. They mattered to me more than my church. My wife mattered more than my church. You know, I always knew I can get another church and they can sure get another pastor, but I only get one shot at being Tanya's husband and one shot at being Michael and Seth's dad. And, uh, I think there's a way to do all of these well, but if push comes to shove, I'm going to do, you know, I'm always her husband and their dad, and I'm going to do that.

20:23 I'll give you an example. Again, there's no inherent conflict, but stuff does come up. It's funny, we're in playoff season right now, and it's making me remember. 1995, all right, my son Michael was, in 95, he was 12. He was a huge Braves fan, and the Braves won the World Series in 95. and I did this dumb thing.

20:51 When the Braves won the final game of the World Series, Michael was just celebrating so much, I got this great idea to make a vow. I said, hey, Michael, let's make a promise to each other that if the Braves ever go back to the World Series, we're going. No matter how old we are, no matter what else is going on, we're going. If I'm 80 years old, you've got to take me. He's like, I mean, yeah, he's 12 years old. What's he going to say? No, that's a bad idea. You shouldn't make a stupid vow. No, he's like, he's all in. Yeah, let's do that. I watched in horror the next year.

21:32 As the Braves sail through the playoffs. I don't think they lost in the playoffs. To land in the World Series against the Yankees, the week we had revival scheduled, At the church I pastored. I was like oh no this is awful and to cap it off the guy that I had scheduled for revival was a man named Sam Cathy some old time Southern Baptist would know who Sam Cathy was Sam Cathy was a hellfire brimstone preacher he was quite brilliant he was really great but Sam would call a spade a spade and I knew you know he he was coming in for revival and I had promised Michael we were going to the World Series. They played the first two games in New York and then game three was going to be in Atlanta on Tuesday night.

22:33 The revival started Sunday morning. And when Sam showed up on Saturday night for the revival the next day, I said, hey, Sam, I got to tell you something. I said, I'm going to be here tomorrow for the revival and I'm going to be here Monday night for revival, but I will not be here Tuesday and Wednesday night. Sam got this look. If I had picked up a two by four and smacked him in the head with it, he wouldn't have looked any more shocked.

23:01 And he said, well, where are you going to be? I said, I'm going to be at the World Series. He said, what? Are you going to miss church for a ball game? I said, no, I'm going to miss church because I made a promise to my son a year ago. It was a dumb promise. But I made a promise and we're going to Atlanta for the World Series games. I said, I don't even know how I'm going to get tickets, but I made a promise and we're going to go. He was like, well, I think that's wrong. I said, okay. He said, you shouldn't miss church for a ball game. I said, Sam, you're not hearing me. I'm not missing church for a ball game. I'm missing because I made a foolish vow to my son, but the Bible says you keep your vow to your own hurt.

23:57 and I'm going to keep my vow. And boy, the next morning, he got up in my pulpit and skinned me alive to my own people. It was not pretty. And we went to the World Series. I got two anonymous letters from people in the church and the relationship between me and Sam was never the same after that. I heard his own son-in-law tell me I became a sermon illustration I know a preacher if I told you his name you'd know it but he missed church for a ball game I mean you know there you go I'm like okay glad to help out I want to tell you, Sam is in heaven. Probably whoever wrote me those anonymous letters are in heaven.

24:52 You know who remembers? Everybody else has forgotten that. All the people who criticize me for doing that have forgotten, but one guy. My son, Michael. Who's a pastor. And a father. And a husband. And within the last two years has had to walk through cancer with his wife.

25:15 And man, I've watched him keep his vow. And I say, thank you, Lord. Thank you. You know, I want to encourage you. Don't make stupid vows. But keep your word. The other thing that I did, first 20 years we were married, we were poor. So don't think this is about money. but I told my sons when they were young, hey, when you turn 11, I'll take you anywhere in the United States you want to go. Just you and dad are going to go on a trip.

25:51 And I intended that trip to be my coaching them into adolescence. I was going to talk to them about what was going to happen in their bodies and their hearts over the next few years. You know, girls were going to come on the scene. I wanted to prepare them for that. and my two sons are so different. I mean, they are so different. They don't like the same things. They don't think the same way. They don't find the same things funny. We used to drive down the road and see some advertisement that would say, fun for the whole family and I would always bitterly say, that's a lie.

26:28 We could not do anything that was fun for our whole family because those guys are so different. So I told them, pick anywhere you want to go and Michael's two years older than Seth. So Michael chose Chicago for, he wanted to meet Kent Hughes, pastor of college church. He wanted to go to Wheaton. He wanted to go to Moody Memorial church. He wanted to go to the natural history museum and the shed aquarium, uh, in, and the university of Chicago. And we did all that stuff on that 11 year old trip. He's 43 today. He can tell you every detail of that trip. And I use that to, again, coach him into adolescence. Seth wanted to go to Orlando for obvious reasons. They're very different. I told him when you turn 16, I'll take you anywhere in the world you want to go. So we had to save up for these things. I saved up for a couple of years to have the money to do it. Michael chose London because he wanted to go to the British Museum.

27:26 he wanted to go he wanted to see the Elgin marbles from the Acropolis he wanted to go to the British library to see the Lindisfarren Gospels the manuscript in the British library and wanted all the London museums and stuff and then a side trip to Liverpool because he's a big Beatles fan and we did all that Seth wanted to go fishing for peacock bass in the Amazon and we did that and And again, I can't tell you how much I have the hearts of my sons to this day.

28:02 Every conversation we have is with, I love you, dad, and I love you. It's just precious. And my sons are just two of the godliest men I know, best husbands and fathers, both in ministry. What I'm telling you is there's a way for you to show joy in it. If you're always grousing about how mistreated you are and how hard it is and what a bad deal you get and how terribly you're treated, you can expect them to resent ministry. But what are the fruit of the Spirit? love joy peace patience kindness goodness faithfulness gentleness self-control you hear that joy part joy love joy peace if you're always dumping on your family about the hard stuff of ministry of course they're going to resent it you you you can't do that and I would encourage you to bring your wife into your ministry.

29:11 Let her be a part of it. Look, I'm as complimentarian as you get. I don't think my wife should hold the office of a pastor, but it's a very different thing for me to say, you're walled off from what God's doing in my life. I include her and I share with her what, I mean, I can't tell you how much she's helped me with my preaching, my thinking.

29:45 She's just remarkable. And I share ministry with her. I know this is a terrible analogy, but Tanya doesn't mind it, so you shouldn't either. I call her, she's like a sheepdog. have you ever seen a sheepdog work sheep and the sheep start going one way what does that sheepdog do goes and boy brings them back in that was her function in my ministry she would say to me hey we need to take them out to dinner uh they're drifting we need to pull them back in hey that he's he's getting discontented so let's take them out to lunch and just love on them a little bit it'll be a whole lot easier for them to be back in the fold. She just had a knack for that. And she worked very diligently to help my ministry succeed. And I just can't imagine what life and ministry would have been without her doing that. And if you're the kind of pastor, like, you know, I'm the man of God, you take care of the home, you're really missing out.

30:49 bring her into your ministry god made you one flesh that doesn't mean she holds the office you hold but it does mean that she is one flesh with you who do hold that office and there's a way for you all to do that together for her to really bless you and help you and you need her speaking into your life to call you on your junk you know you you can get that man of god syndrome and think somehow you are excused from treating other people badly. August the 17th excuse me August the 21st 2017 I can tell you exactly what I was doing I was in West Kentucky and by the way in Kentucky we don't say Western Kentucky we say West Kentucky I was in West Kentucky because that was the day of the eclipse and the path of totality went over West Kentucky especially over Princeton and Hopkinsville Kentucky it was the maximum totality path, four minutes of 100% blockage of the sun.

31:59 Millions of people were going to West Kentucky to be there in that path of totality. I got invited by a Baptist association down there to preach to an outdoor service the night before. It was a good excuse for us to go. I wanted to see it. At the time, my mom and one of my sisters lived in Princeton where the path of totality went. So we go down there on Sunday, and we were there on Monday for the eclipse. As soon as it's over, I know the Western Kentucky Parkway, which is the only thoroughfare that takes you from West Kentucky back up to Central Kentucky where we live, I knew it was going to be like a parking lot. I look at Tanya. As soon as the eclipse is over, I say, look, quick, get in the car. We've got to get on the road because it's going to be awful. going back to Frankfurt, which was a three-hour drive. She said, just a minute, let me go in and say bye to your family.

32:52 and I just sat there helplessly 25 minutes later she comes out and I'm furious I am ticked I'm like did you not hear me we need to get on the road she's well I'm in there I'm being nice to your family. It's your family. And you obviously, you didn't go in and say bye to them. Both of us don't have to be jerks. I mean, you know what it's going to be like? I mean, it's going to take us forever to get home. And man, it just went downhill from there. It went downhill. And we, it took us, you know, it was like five minutes used normally to get to the Western Kentucky Parkway from my sister's house? 30 minutes to get to the Western Kentucky Parkway, two miles away. And then once we're on it, the Western Kentucky Parkway in its whole history has never seen this many cars. You're going along 15 miles an hour. And it took us eight hours to get back to Frankfort. Along the road, along the way, we're ticked at each other the whole way. There is crying and screaming and recrimination and bitterness. She did a little of it too. It was not good. And both of us felt justified. I'm feeling like I didn't feel respected or listened to. And she felt like I was being a jerk. Both things were true.

34:36 we get to the house and we go to her I go up to my study where I meet with God and she goes to the bedroom and 20 minutes later, I go, you know, don't let the sun go down on your wrath. We've got to deal with this. So I walked into the bedroom, and I said, you know, we've got to resolve this, and she said, I know. but you don't treat me like the weaker vessel.

35:10 You treat me like the lesser vessel. I said, well, I do not get to do that. I don't get to do that. I wish she could be here today to bear witness to what I'm about to say. It really was a turning point. I mean, we had a great relationship. It wasn't like I treated her like that all the time. But the thing is, I did give myself permission to do that when I thought she had violated something. and again, it was like the Lord spoke to me through her that day. There is no scenario in which I get to treat her like the lesser vessel. I got this weird fascination with Greek vases. I know you don't get it, but I do. And I have in my study, my office at Southern, some really expensive replicas.

36:10 They're not real ancient Greek vases, but they're replicas. And we bought them in Greece. And when my grandchildren were little and they would come visit me, what do you think I did with those vases? I put them up on top shelves that their little grubby hands couldn't reach. Right? I'm treating it like a weaker vessel. I'm protecting it. And what Tanya let me see that day is that I was not treating her that way. I wasn't honoring her as the weaker vessel and as a fellow heir of the grace of life. I was treating her like a lesser vessel, like somehow if she violated my will, she was entitled to whatever, however I treated her. It was a turning point. It was like, okay, I don't get to do that. And she would tell you today, I took that as the voice of God. and I said, you know, I've got to change this.

37:10 Guys, if sanctification is progressive, and I think we'd all agree it is. When you were saved, you didn't get instantly sanctified, did you? It's progressive. So if sanctification is progressive, why are there so many cranky old Christians? What's wrong with that picture? should we not be getting kinder gentler meeker more pleasant to be around more loving more understanding I mean we excuse ourselves because of the toughness of ministry we excuse ourselves for being less than sanctified but the Holy Spirit is overcoming our personalities and our brokenness and making us more and more like our Savior. Our destiny is to be conformed to the image of his dear son.

38:18 And we short circuit that by excusing ourselves because ministry is hard and our wives don't get us and our churches mistreat us or under pay us or whatever. What I'm saying is you've got to make the unilateral decision to do the right thing, to be who God wants you to be and to quit excusing yourself, uh, for being imbalanced. There is, there are a lot of plates to keep spinning. You've got being a husband, being a dad, being a pastor, being a community person, all those things you do. But if God has called you to it, he's enabled you to do it. And this is the choice you have to make. And you have to make it relentlessly.

39:13 You have to make it repeatedly. You have to make it selflessly. And I would tell you, part of it is making the word of God central to your life. just living in the word of God, loving the word of God, speaking the word of God, talking about the word of God. What does Deuteronomy 6 say? yeah the lord your god is one and how are you to talk about it and you're rising up you're sitting down you're going out you're coming in right it's to be like frontless between your eyes bound on your arm everything you see everything you do wherever you are is to be focused on the word of god it needs to just come out of you when you're when you're squeezed what's inside comes out. It should be the word of God. And you make the word of God central. I think it's going to impact your life and the lives of those around you. When I preach and I tell like the Bible, if I preach the old Testament, I really work hard to tell it well.

40:21 And people sometimes say to me, I love when you preach the old Testament, You just make it come alive. I always smile when they say it because I know they don't know it, but the compliment they're paying is not to me but to my dad. Because he taught me every Bible story. I mean, by the time I was six, I don't think there was a narrative in the Bible I wasn't familiar with. And he made it come alive. I mean, I can hear my dad telling me about Jehu getting the eunuchs to throw, what's her name? Jezebel off the tower and the dogs licking her blood. I mean, man, that'll make a five-year-old sit up and take notice. I can remember my dad telling me about, I mean, everybody remembers the burning bush. What about the next scene on the way down to down to Egypt? And the Lord tries to kill Moses and Zipporah springs into action and gets a flintstone and circumcises one of the boys and throws the foreskin at Moses' feet.

41:26 I remember my dad telling me that. I'm going, oh, this is not what they're teaching in Sunday school. I mean, he made it come alive. By the way, Alistair had me preach at Parkside a couple of years ago, the Sunday before Basics conference. And with him and Sinclair Ferguson said on the front row, that's the text I preached. I call that sermon a bloody shame.

41:59 And yeah, you know, it's, I mean, there's just so much there. It's one of those tough texts that I love to preach. You know why I'm so drawn to that? Because my dad taught me that. So when my sons were born, guess what? I taught him the word of God. By the time Michael was three, Michael could tell you the seven miracles in the gospel of John. He would recite them. And when I went to seminary, I used to have played this little game with my seminary professors where we'd have a Bible trivia contest between him and my four-year-old. Now it was not fair because I knew what Michael knew. So I knew the questions to ask, but Michael would smoke them. He would smoke them, uh, because I taught him. And I see my sons teach my grandchildren. My son Seth has become something of an expert in pilgrim's progress.

42:55 And, I mean, he's taught. Chris has had him teach at a buck run. And he just, my grandchildren growing up with the love of the word of God, the things of the Lord that they got from their dad who got it for me, I got it for my dad. But here's my point. you have the opportunity to build that legacy. It takes time. It takes effort. It takes a relentless love of the word of God and teaching it to your children. And I'm telling you, this is the balance. The balance comes from loving what you do and asking the Holy Spirit to transform you and shape you and make you like your savior. and you know what? I'm still a work in progress and I always will be until I stand before Jesus and then I'm made like him. But in the meantime, I want to grow. I'm still growing. I'm still learning and I'm still trying to strike that balance. You never do it perfectly.

44:01 What you can't do is go through life blaming everybody else and putting it on them that, oh, you don't know how hard I've got it. You're right. I don't. But if God puts you there, he does. And you've got to turn to him and say, Lord, help me do this in a way that glorifies you, honors you. Help me husband my wife well, so that she doesn't resent ministry. And help me parent my children so that they love serving you. This is the challenge. This is the goal. I'll tell you just one other real practical thing is Tony and I always try and keep something out there. I do believe in the Sabbath principle. And one day a week, I really want to just rest and be with her and rejuvenate my spirit. And we always keep something on the calendar where we're going to get away.

45:01 we're getting away what we were supposed to leave Saturday. We were going to go to a place down in Mexico called Zihuatanejo. That is, it's where they go at the end of Shawshank Redemption. We've been there several times and we were supposed to go. There is a tropical storm just parked right off the coast there that's just dumping water on Zihuat. It's going to do it for the next week. so I I've we've rented this place a lot and they said hey sure we'll let you can come another time and I there's another place down in the Florida Keys we rent and I called that guy last night I said hey uh is your place open can we come and he says come on so I was able to get flights so I'll be going home tomorrow night getting on a plane Friday morning with my bride going down to the Florida Keys and you will not see us. We will disappear. Uh, and I just give her all my time.

46:02 Whatever she wants to do, we're going to do. Um, and we, we just, I just love being with her and we keep something on the calendar. And I will tell you when we were broke, we did it. You can buy a pup tent and go camping. You folks out here in California, you got good weather year round. So I don't want to hear you complaining about it. We got to deal with snow and stuff and humidity that you don't have. But, you know, there are cheap ways to do it. And what I learned back when we didn't have any money is my spirit and attitude mattered more than where we went.

46:42 You know, I could make it pleasant for my wife and my kids, whatever we did. and that's on you. And I would just tell you, keep something out there. Hey, this is on the calendar. When we get through this season, we're going to do this. You're going to have all of me. And then be a man of your word. It's just we're living that Sabbath principle over and over. The cycle of work real hard, go at it hard, and then rest. I think God designed us to do that. I think it's his plan, his design, and I think our ministry and our lives should reflect it. Now, I could go on all day, but I'm going to stop and just say, I'll open it up, I'll answer a question or two if anybody wants to ask one. Yeah. Do you have wisdom on the other side of that, which is maybe protecting her from parts of your ministry?

47:44 Yeah. What I've noticed sometimes is that when I have to face criticism or just the joke that happens. Yeah. I've learned to develop a little bit of a thick skin, and I feel like sometimes she's more upset by it than I am. Yeah, that's true. Okay, it's a great question, and I'm going to tell you my answer.

48:06 Another version of that same question I get a lot is, well, how much do you share with your wife and all that? If Alistair were here and you ask him, how much did you share with your wife? His answer is nothing. And my answer is everything. I don't think one is right and the other wrong. I think this is a function of your wife and her personality and what is for her best.

48:31 Tanya, she's wired differently. She's able to take that stuff. It has happened. Chris was actually there one time. A guy at Buck Run who we love, love dearly. Chris saw the guy pull his hand back to punch me. Chris was there. Saw it. And this guy, you know, I called him on what he was doing. And he pulled back to hit me. And Chris will tell you, I just as calm as I could, I said, look, you can hit me. You can beat me up. Whatever you want to do. This is not going to change the fact that you're wrong.

49:11 And he stormed out. It created a bit of a furore for several months, didn't it? and my wife loved this guy. I mean, loved him like a dad. And it was hard on her, but you know what? She was able to just treat him. She's the kind that it did not, didn't change the way she behaved. It didn't change her view of ministry. She's just constitutionally that way. Other people, but I could, if she weren't that way, I wouldn't even told her about it. Now that one was big enough that she would have heard, But I would just say this is a function of your wife's personality. And your instinct is right. If stuff like that bothers her, then do protect her from it. But you can still include her in the preparation of the word. Things like that.

50:04 Ask her opinion on what's my best strategy here. I'll tell you, when I got called to Pastor Ashland Avenue, it was the opposite of Buck Run in the sense that It was founded in 1916. I was called to pastor in 1990. I was the third pastor in the church's history. From 1916 to 1990, there were two pastors. It was a big gray ship. And Tanya and I, we went to a bed and breakfast for two days. And I remember us on a Saturday morning laying in bed with a big yellow legal pad. And we just wrote down, we dreamed what we wanted Ashland Avenue to become. and she and I wrote it out and we prayed over it. And by the grace of God, when I left seven years later, everything on that list had happened. And so that kind of including her, hey, dream with me. What do we want God to do in our church?

50:56 That kind of thing. That is including her in a way that doesn't hurt her. Other stuff, if you know that would hurt her, protect her from it. I think your instinct is right there. But this is a function of who your wife is and your knowledge of her. Peter says dwell with her according to knowledge and I think you're doing that by the very fact that you know well that hurts her I think that instinct is right yes sir talked a lot about family your family, your wife, your kids and so forth my whole ministry I've been bi-vocational my wife has multiple sclerosis we deal with that but right now My father has dementia. My mother has pulmonary fibrosis. I have a sister that is severely mentally disabled. And a couple years ago, I had to make a very, very tough decision to step down from my church, move closer to my parents so that literally the only one who can take care of them, me and my wife, that she has her own limitations.

52:03 And, of course, we're active in their church. But, honestly, I can't help but feel guilty over the fact that, I mean, I know I'm serving them, but you know what I mean? Yeah, but let me, brother, let me do whatever I can to tell you, you have no reason whatsoever to feel guilty. The Word says if a man doesn't care for his own, he's worse than an unbeliever. You're caring for your own. You are doing what the Word tells you to do. And you've got a crushing load on you. And that is your ministry. It is not secondary. It is not secondary. You're doing what God has given you to do. And obviously he trusts you an awful lot. Because he's put a lot on you. And he will enable you. I don't doubt that. But the one thing you should not feel is guilt. You might feel overwhelmed.

52:56 Because what you just listed is more stuff than I've had to deal with in my life. But don't feel guilty because you're doing it. in fact, just offer it to the Lord. Elizabeth Elliot taught me so much on suffering. She said, suffering is anything you've got that you don't want, anything you want that you don't have. It's just simply a matter of degrees. There's a lot you've got that you don't want. And there's at least one thing you want that you don't have. And to that degree, you're suffering. She talked about taking your suffering and just offering to the Lord. Lord, I'm giving this to you. I want to honor you with this. Help me glorify you in this. And it sounds to me like you're doing that. So I get you feeling overwhelmed, but don't feel guilty. You're not doing anything wrong.

53:50 And you're doing everything right, it sounds to me. And I'm saying that from my heart and from the word of God. You're doing what God's given you to do. And God bless you. Amen. Let's pray. You worked with us on your two boys, and I've got a unique situation where I've got a mine, a hers, and an ours, and the ours are adopted. So I've got a unique blend of blended and adopted that I didn't have at the very beginning. Yeah. I don't know if you've got any insights or wisdom on how to minister to your kids. You know, here's where I just go, you do the best you can. You do the next thing. And I want to be real clear.

54:45 There's no recipe that if you follow this recipe, it will all turn out right. I don't believe that. A, I believe in total depravity. So you can do everything right, and your kid can still totally reject the gospel, walk away from Christ. That can happen. It got nothing to do with whether you did something right. I am saying, though, control what you can. Do the things you know that are the best things to do. So you pour your love into them, pour the word into them, be joyful in ministry, and then leave it in the hand of the Lord. Because, you know, I mean, every one of those situations you mentioned are really tough situations. and it's hard to parent kids that aren't your biological kids because you married into a family with them and then kids you adopted i mean they're unique challenges but again the lord knows these things i would just tell you entrust them to the lord and do what you know to do and what you can do but again i think the devil wants us to take false guilt on ourselves i i don't want to put false guilt on you. I'm saying control what you can. As much as lies in you, be at peace with all men. And I would say that same thing about, you know, your kids might turn their back on Christ.

56:10 Just make sure it's not because you presented a wrong view of him. Does that make sense? And just, just love them relentlessly. My two rules of parenting, and I only got two, I'll never write a book on parenting, but I do believe in these two things. Never, ever, ever, ever let them think you don't love them. And never, ever, ever, ever let them think you're okay with their sin.

56:38 My two sons, one of them was a straight arrow. I mean, the straightest of the straight. And one of them took us on a ride like I just don't even want to describe. Both of them today, if you knew them both, you would not know which one of them was the one that took us on the detour. They're both incredibly godly men. And I want to encourage you. Some of you got kids that right now look like they've walked away from the Lord and they love their sin and all that. The final chapter is not written yet. Just keep praying. Keep loving them. don't let them think you don't love them don't let them think you're okay with their sin both things are are true and both things are essential yes sir Can you speak on the margin of falling into the trap of personal devotion versus like sermon prep devotion and separating the importance of that?

57:46 Because I think I've fallen into it, maybe others have, where you know what's coming up. And so you use your personal devotional time for the prepping of the sermon, and that robs you of that margin of personal. I want to be careful here because I don't want to come out with rules that the Bible itself doesn't give us.

58:10 I'm going to say that I think there's certainly a way. I mean, when you do your sermon prep, it is devotional. I mean, you're bringing every thought captive to Christ. And so I'm not going to tell a guy, you're spending time in the word, but it's sermon prep. That really doesn't feed your soul. You need to do the other thing. I'm not going to say that. I'm going to tell you, it's worked real well for me. I like reading through the Bible every year. The McShane plan works real well for me. And it's amazing how much it often fits. it gives me material for what I'm doing in sermon prep too.

58:54 But I'm not going to make it a rule. So again, I don't want to lay false guilt on somebody. I think that the issue here is, is that doing something in your life? So, especially like bivocational guys, I'm just not going to make a bivocational guy feel guilty because he's only got so much time.

59:19 you give to the Lord what you can. So ideally, ideally, I think it's great to have your sermon prep time and you're reading through the Bible or whatever. But I don't want to make somebody feel like they're in sin. If that's all they've got, that's simply all the time. They're putting bread on the table or caring for a wife with MS or whatever. you know it's it's sort of like what alice was talking about and the way i feel about my wife you know i want to be with her it's not like oh man i didn't that i didn't spend 15 minutes talking to tiny today uh i feel guilty about that no because i want to it motivates me to do it and i think that's the way we go about our bible reading bible study and that should be the goal but use the time available to you.

1:00:14 And if you can do both, I think that's ideal. But if you simply don't have it, just make sure that you are feeding on the word of God in whatever, whatever way. Does that make sense? Yes. One more and we'll go. Can you talk about what healthy family worship looks like versus personal worship time? No.

1:00:36 I will tell you, I've not done that well. I've really followed the Deuteronomy 6 model. My colleagues and good friends, Don Whitney, Bruce Ware, these guys are family worship time. They sing. They read. we were hit and miss on that. And so I would just tell you, I don't think I did that well. But I will tell you there was not a day that went by we weren't talking about the scripture. We didn't pray multiple times in that day. But we did not do the family altar thing well. I don't feel guilty about it, but I'm also not going to tell you it's not important. And there's a part of me, a big part of me that says, I wish I had, wish I'd done that better. By God's grace, my sons love Jesus.

1:01:33 And I think they do that better than I did. But I'm not the guy to talk about that. Read Don Whitney's book. That's what I would tell you. He looks like me. So I get people get confused this all the time. I had one lady come up to me one time and she said, oh, I just want to thank you. You've been such a blessing to me. And I've read what you've written. And what she's going on, I'm feeling really good. She said, your book on family worship, it has transformed our lives. I just said, well, I'm so glad. Thank you.

1:02:08 It was at that point I realized she thought I was Don Whitney. So read Don Whitney's book. But I've not done that well, and I'm not going to pretend I have. How about that? hey guys thank you for coming I don't want to keep you free for lunch