Staff Talks with Francis: When Good Things Distract Us from Jesus

0:00 Yeah, I don't know if today's really gonna be a lesson or if it's something that I want us to discuss. We'll see. We'll see where it goes. But something I've been convicted about recently, I think the more I study church history and I see what we divided over, it's some things are becoming more clear. some things are very difficult to articulate and that's what I want to talk through with you because well here's here's the main thing As leaders of the church, it's very easy to get sidetracked and spend a lot of time on things that are not the core primary issue. For example, this Sunday, I was just talking about, talking through Colossians 1, a passage I've been trying to memorize, just about Christ and the centrality of, I mean, he has to be preeminent in all things.

1:12 It's like he's got to take first place. And yet what happens is, you know, I understand there's different parts of the body. For example, this weekend, Lisa and I were speaking at a marriage conference in San Jose. And there's just nothing in me that wanted to talk about marriage. Because I go, this isn't really a marriage issue. the reason why Lisa and I have had a great marriage is I'm not needy I don't I'm not like oh I'm a miserable person you know make me happy but instead I have this walk with the Lord where I get alone with Jesus and I'm so filled every morning that I come out spilling over with life to give um i don't wake up and and have like this emptiness that i need her or the kids to fill or a successful career to fill but it's this intimacy with the trinity and this that anytime we try to fix it with something else it's not going to work and in ministry we can try to do all these things to help people but at the core if they're if the lord is not their shepherd and therefore they have all these wants and their cups are not overflowing all this other stuff we can get sidetracked by and it won't be till years down the road you realize wow they never really found the center of their life in their enjoyment of Christ which is the chief aim of man and I'm just realizing how easy it is to get distracted by that and when I look at the early church you know there's this simplicity to it They don't have...

3:17 it doesn't seem like they're, I'm trying to think how to word this right. There's a simplicity to it. You know, they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, to the prayers. Paul is starting these churches in different places pretty quickly and leaving them to themselves. So it's not like they all have this deep theology i mean he's starting churches within weeks you know months and weeks and it's rare that he's even in a place for a year um so it's like whoa how did that happen and how did it thrive how did it grow and when you look at the church splits it really gets into um you know they're trying to define the nature of Christ and go, well, I think he's one nature that's both human and divine. And like, no, he's two natures that are human and divine that are forever inseparable.

4:31 And it's like, okay, well, we disagree on how to say that. So let's not have communion together ever again. It's like, whoa. Like, is that okay in God's eyes? Because they're going, no, but we're, we want to be accurate and doctrine is important. And yes, it is, but so is unity. And at what point was, we're going to praise Jesus together. We're going to honor Jesus together. we're going to pray to Jesus together we're going to worship him um but then once it got to you know we're going to define him to this degree and then it's like things just start falling apart and I'm thinking about like when Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 23 23 woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, free tithe, mint, and dill, and cumin, and yet have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice, mercy, faithfulness. These you ought to have done without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.

5:59 Like there is... there are certain things I think we would all agree on as heretical. Like if I came today and said, you guys, I've been studying. I don't really believe Jesus is the son of God. I don't really believe he's the image of the invisible God. okay, it's time to separate from me. There's core, like weightier issues. Or if I say, hey, I don't think we really need to love each other like Christ loved the church. He says, that's a new command, and I think we need to stick to the old ones.

6:54 If it ain't broke. There's certain things where you're like, whoa that's really extreme that's heresy but i guess the thing i want to throw out there it isn't it heretical when we overemphasize certain truths to the neglect of the weightier things that's what jesus is saying you're straining out a gnat and you swallowed a camel like that's a massive thing that you neglected to try to get this one thing right but it wasn't that he's even saying that it's fine to do that it's good to do that but the over emphasis to the neglect of the weightier things and that's what i'm saying as a church i go okay how many of our people, if you were to guess, take all of we, our church, how many of our people get alone with the Lord every morning and are just so filled by him?

8:04 Where he's, the Lord is their shepherd and you don't really have to worry about them because they find so much life in Jesus himself. That I'm not too worried about them. They're fine. And they're life givers. They have this spring of living water coming out of them. Like what percentage? And because if they don't get it from that, they're going to drive us crazy. Because they're going to want that from us. And that's why at the marriage retreat, it's not even really about marriage. If you don't have that life in yourself, you're just going to drive the other person crazy i did that illustration years ago with a scuba tank and just said gosh if lisa doesn't have her own life i gotta keep sharing this with her and it's like oh you know versus both of us just got air to spare and we're just kind of cruising through life together it's easy because we're both the lord is our shepherd and so we're not wanting we're not needy we're not high maintenance and so if we keep doing all these things to help people and whatever it's it's it's fine it's good i just want to make sure we're not neglecting what's priority and is there a practical or pragmatic heresy that takes place.

9:43 I don't know if that's the right phrase. Mercy would probably be laughing at me right now. But we're basically, we're doing things in such a way that we're emphasizing something so much that it's heretical. And in our conversations, we're keying in on certain things to the point where it's heretical. And that's why when a church spends equal time on anything along with Christ, I just go, isn't that wrong? When you look at the whole of scripture, that's why I love that we just keep reading over scripture, scripture, scripture, because we see this is what God emphasizes. This is what matters. when we as elders got together years ago it's like okay what are the most important most emphasized things we see in the new testament and let's emphasize those and make those our values it's not i really care about this all right because everyone's going to have their little thing and and at some point it becomes heretical when there's an over emphasis on it So, it's just, are there things we do that overemphasize things that Scripture does not emphasize?

11:13 To look at our own lives, and I don't, I think this is the part of... the enemy's plan because even if to pursue unity and it's something my friend michael has really helped me with is is as we talk about all these things that divided us through the centuries he says we can't keep spinning out on all these different issues we have to keep bringing it back to Christ. We have to emphasize Jesus. We have to talk about Jesus. If Jesus is here, you want us to talk about him and honor him and worship him for his attributes. And if we try to just pursue unity, we're never going to get there. But if we keep emphasizing Jesus, it's going to bring us together.

12:12 And it's similar to like what I wrote in You and Me Forever. It's like if we keep, if Lisa and I just try to have this great marriage, it could happen or it might not. It might just drive us crazy. But when we focus on Jesus and focus on his mission,

12:35 it's almost the byproduct of that. and so a lot of the things as we go on in ministry I just want us to I don't want to re-preach what I preached on Sunday the Colossians 1 but it really just makes you go why do I want to talk about anything else if there is one being who holds all things together and I have the opportunity to enjoy him every morning because he says he who loves me will obey my commands and my father and I will love him and we'll come to him and make our home with him and the spirit who is with you will be in you and and and so if I am just finding my joy and pleasure every day by going wow he created all things visible and invisible he made my invisible soul which is staggering if you just stop and think about that concept about a being making your invisible soul that part of you that is eternal and lives on and somehow through his body of flesh he was able to reconcile by his death my spirit with the spirit of god that we could be one so he makes this invisible soul he's jealously yearning for that spirit in me to be one with him and he made that possible and that he says at my right hand or pleasures forevermore.

14:34 If we're not leading people to that type of enjoyment. is it heretical to talk about other things and focus on other things and good things you know and so you have people in the church they're very much much about like finances um and this is what i love about piper piper always brought it back to that enjoyment of christ right he just always brought us back but if you're a finance guy you're going to talk about all sorts of things about money if you're a marriage guy you're always going to be talking about marriage and family if you're a you know evangelism guy it's always going to be about you know one two three let's go uh if it's uh whatever it is you know it's like let me emphasize this let me emphasize that and you know but at some point you know that's why even as that's why i never want to be the house church guy i go no i'm trying to obey this great command to love one another as christ loved us you know if you can do it in a giant church great uh but i don't want to be the house church guy maybe okay being the communion guy because we're talking about communing with the living christ like that's huge you know like like how do we keep christ central and just always evaluate in my life and that's why i don't even as i get into this unity thing i don't want it to be a unity thing it's a christ thing and those of us who want christ to be central and that somehow that should be enough to unite us so let's keep talking about him let's keep praising him let's just keep seeking him. But as you counsel different people and you find yourself frustrated, it's probably because these people are not finding life in Jesus. And so they're wanting

16:41 something from you that you'll never be able to provide. And it's not your job. Just like a husband and a wife, you know, if they'll just drive you crazy if they don't find life in Christ. So I guess the discussion I wanted to hear, honestly, is like, what do you think when you hear that? And I just don't want us to ever get off base and heretical. You know, because there's a certain type of heresy we can spot. And I just think there's another type that Christ is referring to here that we might not spot. And that's where, with all the different things that crazy love does, I don't want to be heretical in what we do.

17:43 it's so interesting you bring this up now because yesterday i was uh uh in the car driving and listening to a message by keller on the affections right uh and uh he was talking about this word in ephesians i was trying to look it up right i think the greek word is katablano right But basically it gets translated like in the English as like, I want you to be like aware, like made aware of, you know, this surpassing like knowledge of God's love. Right. But he's like, like the actual like contour and tenor of that word is like ambushed. It's like when you get mugged or jumped. Right. It's like, wow. Like, like I want you to get jumped by like, like this sense of God's love. Right. That's, and he's basically saying like, that is the kind of like, like the primary experience of like the true Christian, right? Someone who has been like ambushed, overtaken, jumped by this awareness of God's love.

18:55 And then he went on to like describe these like conversion moments of already Christians that like, like, you know, like Martin Luther or Spurgeon or Leslie that they were like doing the religious thing. And doing all the things that I think you were talking about where like in the absence of being jumped by God's love, what you do is you have to create religion, right? Because you have to create meaning. And so you make like certain things like the thing. And so whether it's Catholics with Mary or us like reform dudes with like Calvin, right? Like this like – or Bible people. You know like Bible people and they make an idol of the – like the Bible and that's like the thing. And then they divide over it and then they're jerks and like you're like how can you be such a Bible person and so like not like Christ, right? But that's the thing where you just, man has to create glory, right?

19:54 And we like place things in. And that's, I think, where it's the amazing work of Satan, right? Where he's able to take these like good things and just be like, let me just give it a little like half turn to the left or half turn to the right. and the very thing that was meant to give you the canoblano of god's love is the thing that like replaces uh and satisfies your heart right so you're like like the bible guys or the prayer guys or the communion guys or the mary guys or like the like spiritual formation guys like like it's like this like just it has the tenor so it's not like satan worship where you're like okay you know it's so close and it has like the the contours of of like christ and coming near to christ but you just do a little half turn swap right and all of a sudden like the side thing is becomes the ultimate thing and that's where you get all the jacked up stuff of the because i think your premise is exactly right which is if like we were all or whatever by like like like marriage kind of like like works itself and in a way that like technique couldn't couldn't do it or like unity kind of like but if the moment we make those things like okay we got to fight for this thing and versus like we have to fight for our like being overwhelmed by God's love then like I think it starts off and then but always you'll see throughout church history like it kind of like starts off like unified it starts off sounding great but you just have to because it's a half turn it looks right but you just ride that law that line a long time and then it's like we're just you know 100 years later we're just so way off you know we've created these things it's also funny that you bring this up because you know the

21:56 you know the uh uh practical hairs the term that you use the um term uh that keller was is like functional atheism but it's like functional heresy right yeah people who Basically, like, say, functional atheism is, like, you say things, like, and confess things that are Christian, but your life is functionally atheist, right? Like, you live as if there isn't Christ, but we can be functionally heretical as well, right?

22:30 But all to say is, like, amazing thoughts, and I think you're absolutely right on, like, those premises. And then, I mean, we, but the thing is, we're not, like, that temptation isn't beyond us as well, right? Because, like, we'll get caught up in, like, we are churchy stuff. And we'll be caught up on, like, hey, like, how do we do, like, all together and da-da-da-da-da-da. And it's just so easy to miss, like, what is this all about? And that's for us to, like, encounter the love of God, you know, himself, right? so anyway great thoughts Francis I think it's like Lord given yeah no thank you for those thoughts that was great the other thing is yeah I I do want I don't want to lose that thought of whoever you're discipling whatever house church you're in think about the people in there and how many of them have life from their relationship with the Holy Trinity.

23:41 apart from you, apart from their parents, their kids, even the church, how many just have that life? And if they don't, that's where the practical or whatever functional heresy comes in, is we start addressing these other things to try to fix it. I get it. If someone's a drug addict and they can't even hear you because they're on drugs, yeah, get them off of drugs first and then talk to them. Or if it's like they're about to jump off a cliff or a building, it's like, okay, let's talk them into it or grab them, tackle them first. But for the most part, it's like, be careful that we don't get busy doing a bunch of other stuff.

24:41 That's not going to last. You know, going all the way back to Rob's, you know, illustrate. I use it a lot of gorgeous receptionists at the ER, you know. We only have so much to do. The main thing is to get them in a room with a doctor. If they don't want to go be with a doctor, there's only so much you can help them with. And so if they're not finding that pleasure of God being their shepherd, we're just wasting our time. And we can't let people steal our time like that. And I think that was Christ's emphasis with his disciples. So if you don't see me as that valuable, you're not worthy to be my disciple. Unless you hate your father, mother, wife, kids, you can't be my disciple.

25:39 He himself was making himself that valuable, that central. you know one last thought lamb led communion in her house church like a week ago it just brought me to tears it was the most powerful because he was just talking about the value of christ and just emphasizing why was it possible for one man to die for the sins of the entire world like how could one person do that and uh and you know first he kind of preface it with everyone share who they admire or that person you encountered in life that kind of blew your mind whether it's a professor or athlete or ever like you're most starstruck and um but then he just started talking about jesus and his value and his worth and he just spoke with so much passion and conviction he's just like just raising his voice he goes because of the value of jesus christ he is more valuable than every person on the earth combined it was the value of that one person that made him able to die for the sins of the whole world and just talking about the treasure of christ and it's like wow so good so deep and so simple and yeah i think by not talking about him enough it's like it is a devaluing of him and that's what becomes heretic heretical is now suddenly he is not taking first place in all things he is not preeminent and now suddenly we're talking about this band this speaker i think those are all the things we rage against because it's like oh he's not

27:48 preeminent i think going all the way back to why i was so bothered when kp was like well and In India, we get excited when we hear that communion's about to take place. But you guys need to have this and this and this and this in order for people to come. It's like, ooh, that's heretical. That's awful. So let's just keep that on the forefront of our minds as we continue in ministry. I don't want us to ever be so busy with other things that we're working hard, but it's like a heretical or we're actually distracting people from the very thing, very person they're supposed to be focused on. Let me ask you a pastoral question. So how does it play out for those of us who are in aspects of ministry that isn't so – I think that dynamic is a lot easier if you're worship leading or you're preaching or you know because it's like like the alignment is a lot clearer right to make that the main thing versus like whatever but for you know those of us on the back end but for social media right like or for you know cloud storage to be like okay well we have to like talk about these things we have to file the taxes like da da da da da and we work hard at that but then at what point does like social media obsession like cross that line it's so you know what I'm saying we don't what I don't want to do is be like you know what it's all about loving Jesus so let's like not pay the dude like attention to like contracts and like oh my gosh we got hosed so we have to do that work

29:53 but you're right especially in churches and ministries it can get to a level where you forget and lose the forest for the trees I don't know if this is so much a so do this, this, this, this as much as it is a heart posture of a person rather than what they do For example, it was kind of fun last night and watching my night football. I thought, oh, that's fun. Case Keenum. I can't believe he's playing. You know, he hasn't thrown a pass in three years.

30:31 But I was, you know, telling Lisa, I go, don't you remember him? You know, there was just like three couples and we did that little tiny getaway. And she's like, no. I go, he was very solid. And so, you know, he had a great game. and then after the game, if you watch his interview, he's just so choked up about Jesus. And it's like, I was just, it was good to see that. He was just like, I forget his exact words, but his heart comes through. Now, of course, he's got to play football. Of course, he's got 350 pound men running at him and he's not just in worship the whole time. But it's like, as he does what he does he can't help but the fragrance of christ coming out of him and it's it's that very thing where when crisis is out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks there's like when you are filled with that fragrance of christ it's it's going to come out whether you're the you know that's why you have pastors whose job is to focus on christ and yet are they emitting this fragrance of Christ even in their sermons. So yeah, it should practically be that a person who preaches about Christ should be able to focus on him the most, but that's just not the way it works.

31:57 It could be the football player or the accountant. We all know people that are in some weird field, but they are all about Jesus. So I don't think the issue is actually what you practically do. I just think there's a greater travesty when your job is to shepherd someone and you're not shepherding them towards Christ. Because he's not really central in your life. Does that make sense?