Baseball and Jesus: Francis Chan and Adam Wainwright

0:04 Welcome to the Sports Spectrum Podcast, where faith and sports collide. Here's your host, Jason Romano. And welcome everybody to the Sports Spectrum Podcast. This is episode number 63. I am Jason Romano. Thank you so much for tuning in and checking out our show today. As always, you can subscribe and download this podcast on iTunes, Apple Podcasts, Google Play, on Stitcher, and everywhere podcasts are found. Just take your Android device or your Apple device, whether it's your phone or your tablet, go to the podcast section, whether it's on an app or even online, and then just click that subscribe button. And when you subscribe, you never miss an episode. Every one, 63 of them, will be delivered right to your device, and you'll never miss an episode right here at Sports Spectrum. And, of course, you can get all of our content over at SportsSpectrum.com, where we have daily articles. We have content every single day, four to five pieces of content going out.

1:02 You can also get a daily devotional that will help you get your day started. That goes out first thing in the morning at 6 a.m. So check it out, everything over at SportsSpectrum.com. Today's guest. Now, this is the first time we've had a repeat guest here on the podcast. Back in May and early June, we had Adam Wainwright from the St. Louis Cardinals. He's a pitcher with them. He's certainly been one of their great pitchers, a two-time World Series champion and a three-time All-Star, and been with the Cardinals for a long time, since 2005. But recently, Adam was at a conference that I had attended in San Antonio, and this conference was sort of a baseball-slash-faith conference, where a lot of baseball players came together and learned more about God and were taught specific lessons from pastors and had breakout sessions and brought their wives and it was just a really cool time of fellowship and getting together.

2:00 And also at that conference was Pastor Francis Chan. So Adam and Francis formed this sort of unique relationship a while back and we thought, why not bring these two guys on together? Back in March, we did an interview very similar with Matt Hasselbeck and Matt Chandler. That was, I think, episode number two on the podcast and that was really well received. And so we thought, let's try it again, and let's do it with Francis Chan, who's a very well-known pastor. He's the author of the book Crazy Love and Forgotten God, and just is such a wonderful teacher of the Bible. And Adam is a strong Christian who is just yearning to learn more about God's Word every single day. So we're going to bring in Francis Chan here and Adam Wainwright. We taped this in San Antonio, Texas, and this was in late November that we taped this interview. We're releasing it here in mid-December, and I think you guys will just be really encouraged by both Adam and Francis's wisdom and words of knowledge and just encouragement for us as believers in Christ.

3:06 We didn't talk a ton of sports. Adam, we asked a lot about platform and about being a leader and using the platform that God has given you to be a witness for Christ and a light to Christ. So check out this interview. I really enjoyed it. I was honored and privileged to be able to even listen to these two talk in the same room, much less for me to interview them. So without further ado, let's get right to it. Here they are, Adam Wainwright, St. Louis Cardinals pitcher and the founding pastor of Cornerstone Community Church and the author of Crazy Love, Francis Chan. Well, it's great to have you here, and I think it's a unique relationship, Adam, that you've developed with Francis here. So why don't we talk from your perspective first about just how you guys got to know each other and where this kind of unique relationship started.

4:02 Well, my first exposure to Francis was Crazy Love. I read the book Crazy Love with my wife Jenny and it seems like one of those books that I need to reread every year it's a reminder like we just talked about, no fluff, reminder of how great our God is how big our universe is and how he loves us and how we should love him and love other people And so, you know, I was really affected by it. And I bought a bunch of books and passed it out to all the guys that go to our chapels and Bible studies. And most of those guys read the book, too. And Francis came here a few years back and spoke at PAO. And he's been here a few times now. And so over the years, just talking and having, you know, over one of those years, I got his cell phone number and I was able to text and bounce ideas off of him.

5:02 hey, I'll get this question about the passage I'm reading or the topic I heard about. What do you think about it? And so every now and then I bug him about those kinds of things. But just a great, I mean, obviously a great resource for me as someone who's as wise and biblically schooled as he is, but also a man who's living his faith out as a great inspiration and model to me in how I should translate my faith into the world. Francis, what is it about a conference like this when a player like Adam or any other major league baseball player is here and the heart behind why you want to come and be a part of something like that? Yeah, you know, actually my first, I think that might have been my first PAO when I met you. And I had said no to Steve a couple of times because I just felt like, eh, pro athletes, they always get the best of everything. I want to go to the people that don't ever get a speaker, you know?

5:57 So I kind of rebelled against it in a way, like, I don't go to the rich people, you know? But then I was convicted one time just feeling like, gosh, but who's going to be honest with them? Like, everyone's always kissing up to them just to say, oh, I know Adam Wainwright, you know, or whatever. And, you know, they go to a church probably, and not saying all the pastors, but probably 99% are just, like, thrilled. Like, wow, we've got this pro player there, and I don't want to offend them. I just want to keep them around. It can almost be like your trophy. Like I've got this player in my congregation. And which, knowing as a pastor, you just don't, you may treat them differently. And I just thought, Lord, maybe with some of the struggles I went through, with some fame and money and this and that, maybe I can be more honest with them and direct with them.

6:52 So that's what got me here. but I remember that first time meeting with Adam I didn't know who Adam was you know just Steve's a pitcher who's injured wants to talk with you and um I was like yeah it's fine and we just started talking and I think I was just shocked at how seriously he was thinking through life decisions like what to do with his mind I don't know if you remember but you're just going And man, I read Crazy Love. I'm thinking about buying this property. I don't know what to do with this. I don't know what to do with this. And we just started a relationship that way. And then when the Cardinals were coming in to play the Giants that year, he said, man, can I bring some players by the ministry? And it was so cool. We had them walk in the streets of a pretty crazy area and ministering to people. And the other people didn't know who they were necessarily.

7:49 necessary. We told a few of them, but I think it was more for the players just to see their faith grow and love that experience. Because I think for me, I knew I needed to be in a place where no one knew who I was and that they would just treat me like dirt or whatever. And like there's something like we all need that if you're used to preferential treatment. What about that fame aspect that you described, Francis, and then Adam will get your side. Like the idea of not wanting it. I see you shaking your head right now, just that word and people coming up to you, I love your stuff. Can I get a picture with you? Is it just uncomfortable for you? It is, but it is and it isn't. That's the problem. It's like a drug. You know you know you should hate it, but then it's like when it's not there, then there's part of you that wants it again and and it's like if you're used to it i mean it's just a non-stop wrestle um and unless i get on my face before god it'll it'll control me i think the reason i wanted to meet francis um i've heard plenty of famous pastors talk in person and had a chance to meet plenty of people but that i didn't really reach out to or or have the feeling that i needed to reach out to, but the reason I wanted to reach out to Francis is because I was convicted.

9:13 And Francis has this amazing ability to leave you very, very convicted at the end of every time he talks. Yes, he does. I would agree. You know, the first time he spoke at PAO, I remember everyone in the room was like, well, I'm selling everything I have, and I'm quitting the game, and I'm moving to Indonesia or someplace like that, you know? Yeah. And it was really refreshing, you know, that he kind of has his – without really saying it this bluntly, and I've got a couple other advisors that share the same sort of train of thought, but, you know, I have an ability to pitch a baseball, not maybe at the level Francis preaches, but pretty close. Like it's, you know, I'm not bad at it. And there's, you know, when we all get to our level of the big leagues, Sure.

10:05 You know, everyone there is very talented. And so we've been given those talents. And we have a responsibility to make the most of that time in the big leagues for the kingdom. And so when we went out to San Francisco and we met with Francis there, he told me kind of what we were going to be doing. And I didn't tell my teammates. I said, hey, we're going to go out and hang with Francis. And they'd all read the book. And so they're like, man, that's going to be awesome. I can't wait to do that. We could get some dinner, some drinks. Not quite. And I said, hey, just make sure, because he told us to make sure we wear tennis shoes. You know, we might do some walking or whatever. And so a couple of my teammates, for sure, I knew were not comfortable with what we were going to be doing.

10:47 And we wore our tennis shoes, and we showed up, and we went around with, you know, we split up, and we went into different areas of the Tenderloin in San Francisco, where there's like a major crime every 10 seconds or some crazy number, or 10 minutes maybe. 10 seconds is a lot. 10 seconds is a lot. 10 minutes maybe. Either way, it's a lot. Big stuff's happening there. And now, though, watching what was going on with Francis and his guys walking around and helping him to evangelize those people, there's other big stuff going on there too.

11:23 Back to the fame thing, though. Walking around, nobody knew us. That was great. But I get that question all the time. Like, what do you think when people, you know, I hate to interrupt you, but can you sign this? And they say, I know you probably hate that. And part of me doesn't hate it at all, kind of like you said. And part of me knows maybe I shouldn't like it as much as I do, but I've waited my whole life to be a professional baseball player. And so I think that in those moments where, you know, it may be wrong for a pastor to sign an autograph, I don't know. But for a baseball player, when I was a kid, I wanted that autograph. And I walked around, and I can remember the autographs I did get. And I remember I got a Sid Bream autograph, and he wrote Roman's passage underneath it. And I still have that. And I think that when I write Acts 24-20 underneath it, 20-24 underneath it, I can give that to them, and they can go home, and they can say, Man, this guy is cool, and he spent time with me, and he took time to sign it, And he engaged with me and he spoke and didn't just tell me to beat it.

12:28 I think there's a way we can show Christ in those moments too. What do you think, Francis, in the time that you've dealt with athletes like Adam about using their platforms to share the good news and the idea that this platform that Adam has been given can be a real asset to the kingdom? Oh, yeah. I mean, I always encourage that. I mean, it's ridiculous. In my life, I look at my life and go, why do I have this platform? This doesn't make any sense. But I better steward it well. And in the same way, I tell the ballplayers, I go, for some reason, people will listen to you. That will not give me the time of day. And you've got to steward that. That is a gift that God's given you. It's cool talking to Jaime yesterday. Amazing. I remember when he came to the Lord that year. with you guys. And just how he, you know, his biggest fear was public speaking. And now he's just, he just knew I got to use it. And he's publicly just sharing the gospels. Like that's the coolest thing. I go, yes, use that platform. And so even someone like him who that would be his biggest fear, but you know what, if I've been given this, I better use it. And he's using it and he's killing it, and man, that's what we should do.

13:49 I mean, you've been handed something for a period of time, and I just don't, even flying over here, thinking about the guys, and just going, okay, if I really love these guys, what would I say? It's like, man, I've got to make them understand how serious eternity is. I don't want them to regret, you know, everything they've been handed right now and not using it because they'll regret it. Gosh, I had an opportunity to talk to so many people. They were on the edge of their seats. And I talked about me. That was it. Or I talked about something stupid. I just wasted that time. Yeah, so it's understanding the platform that God has given. Real quick, we're going to talk about urgency in a minute. We're going to talk about a few other topics. But Adam, from the perspective of platform and younger guys, the younger believers that are in your clubhouse, How do you work with them?

14:46 Maybe it's discipling them. Maybe it's just counseling them. Maybe it's helping them to understand that you may be a first or second year player. Maybe it's even a minor league player. But you still have a platform. You don't have to wait until you hit it big and get the big contract or win the side of Young. Use the gifts that God has given you and the platform that you have right now. How have you kind of had those conversations with teammates and other players in the league? You know, I kind of liken it to the story of me and Chris Carpenter, right? Chris Carpenter was an older player, a veteran pitcher, taught me how to be a professional. He taught me how to be a warrior out there on the mound. And thankfully, I was able to kind of pour into him some of what Jesus told me to tell. It's like he taught me pitching, and I kind of introduced the Bible. So I only bring that up because sometimes, you know, I'll bring something to Luke Weaver, who's one of our young players, and then he'll say something to me, and it'll get me thinking.

15:50 And I just feel like, you know what, I want to always shepherd these young guys, but I also want to be able to be taught, too, in these certain moments where there's things I forget all the time. Pitching-wise, right, I'll be teaching a young kid, and I'll say, oh, hey, man, make sure when you get your leg to this spot, your arm needs to be, and I'll be like, man, I need to do that. I forgot. That's something I need to do better again. And so sometimes teaching helps me learn better. Do you find that with your faith as well, like showing them something spiritually and you're like, wait, I've got to do that as well. But what I've found among our team right now is that we have a really solid base of young Christian guys coming up. It's kind of like a renaissance, if you will, coming up through the ranks and almost about to get to the minor leagues, a bunch of really strong believers are coming there. And you know what's weird? I haven't spent much time with them, but I feel a closeness with them more than I do with some of the veteran guys I've been with for the last three or four years.

16:50 And when we had our really successful teams, when we won World Series, as we went all the way a couple of times, we had a bunch of guys on the team that were doing life together, not just baseball. It wasn't just on the field. It was off the field. It was hanging out with our wives and going to dinners and bonding deeper. And, you know, you find yourself rooting more for those guys and pulling harder for them and diving a little bit harder and trying to grind a little bit better on a pitch or staying in there a little bit longer on an at-bat. And it just, you know, that deeper love, it makes you a stronger team. And so that's what I'm trying to portray to these young guys, and they're also pouring it right back into me. We're talking to Adam Wainwright and Francis Chan here on the Sports Spectrum Podcast. And Francis, I want to ask you, we've been here a couple days now here in San Antonio at the conference, and we heard you speak last night.

17:46 And you mentioned it a little bit earlier on the podcast when you were on the plane and just understanding eternity and sort of this urgency that we have. I want to talk to you both about this, but ask you, Francis, Why this sort of passion, this sense of urgency to speak about the urgency in our faith? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things for my life. I mean, my parents died really young. You know, my mom died when she gave birth to me. My stepmom died in a car accident when I was about eight. And my dad died of cancer when I was 12. And so there's always been this sense of, man, any day is going to be my last. and you read scripture and the way God describes himself and you go, wow, I'm going to stand before him. You know, like this is a big, big deal. Like nothing, literally nothing else matters. Period. Nothing else matters.

18:39 World Series, whatever. I mean, seriously, standing before God. I mean, what really matters? And so then the older you get, I mean, now turning 50 this year, I'm just going gosh that it's it's like at least eighth inning now like if I'm gonna do something now's the time you know you got others that are like man it's ninth inning two outs three two count do something swing you know you're gonna you're gonna come in the presence of God any moment and and I think also last week a friend of mine you know he had a stomach ache so he went in hospital and finds out it's leukemia. Like just what in the world out of nowhere? And it's all over. And it just happened in a matter of weeks, the doctor said. And so these are the things I deal with on a at least monthly basis. And I just try to picture, man, when that guy stands before God, what's it going to be like? And I'm just making sure he gets it. And then, you know, and then it's the word of God in Ephesians 5 when it says make the most of every opportunity and going okay I this is serious I can see that countdown clock yeah I mean I really do there was something about hitting 50 where it's like this is no joke anything happened any second And yeah, I felt that when I was younger, but now it's like, okay, there's no point to people, please.

20:14 I don't care what people think. I really have to say and do whatever he's called me to. Not out of this fear. It's just more like, gosh, I want to be ready. I want to hear well done. I want to know, okay, I'm set for eternity because of what I invested on this earth. That's really good. Adam, you heard him speak last night. We're taping this, so we're probably going to be running this sometime in December. It's late November. But you heard him speak last night about urgency. What did that do to you? How did that impact you? I had the chance to talk to several former teammates and just really close friends that I've gotten to know from playing with or PAO conferences. And the idea of not wasting your days really, I mean, for a baseball player, you know, we waste a lot of days. We do. And we think we're busier than we are a lot of times. And when we go on the road trips, and nobody likes to travel, we travel a lot.

21:11 But, you know, you can just get in this rut where you wake up, you eat breakfast, you go to the field, and you play a game, and you eat dinner, and you come home and you stay up playing video games, or you stay up watching Netflix, or you stay up doing a number of different things, or you go to bed and then you wake up the next morning and you eat breakfast and then you go to the field and you play a game. And you know what I mean? It's just this cycle that if you don't break that cycle, it becomes too routine to get out of almost. And I was sitting in my small group this morning and I was thinking, you know what, we have all these mornings where, because we stay up late, and so we sleep until 11 or 12, you know, And then we have to order room service breakfast, and then we go to the field a lot of times. But I'm thinking, you know, we've got all these mornings.

22:08 Maybe if we don't stay up hooting with the owls, we can get up a little bit earlier in the morning and do like we did in San Francisco. And say we had six guys in our small group on the road doing Bible studies. So we usually try to get together one time a road trip. And when we're diligent, we do that. and when we're not, we get into that rut where we don't even do that. So what if one time a road trip, say my week was the first week and we were in Milwaukee and we were San Francisco and we went out and we did that with Francis. Well, then Zach Duke's week was next week and we were in Milwaukee and he knows a good food pantry there. We call the local chaplain and he sets up a couple hours to go out and do community service. And so one time every road trip, we get together and we do that, and we go and we serve as a unit, and we do it in the name of Jesus. And I'm thinking in my mind that if we start with a few guys doing that, I feel like at the end of the year we'll have half the team doing it.

23:09 It seems like once that kind of catches fire and that gets routine. And one of the reasons I wanted to say that on the podcast is for accountability because it's easy to say I've got this good thing I want to do and then look back at your notes a year later and go, that's right, I was going to do that. And so I really want to make that happen. I feel like there's a couple guys on the team I know would do it with me. And so now I just got to make myself do it. Because a lot of times I have really good plans. And I go, I'm going to get up in the morning, I'm going to do that. And then I watch two extra shows of The Walking Dead at night and I get up in the morning at 11.30 and I go, I can't do it in an hour. I've got to be at the field at 1.30 or 2. And so, you know, it's just you have to be intentional about it. And if I'm going to not waste my days, I need to be more intentional about chasing Jesus. Your charity, Big League Impact, is such a big part of what you do. And I feel like I want to ask you the importance of being a part of a charity, giving back, but then the importance of discipling.

24:10 And we're going to get into discipleship in a minute. Being discipled and being diligent in yourself, in your spiritual walk. Because giving back is important and using your platform to share and to help others is big, obviously. But for you personally, not losing the idea of being discipled, getting in the Word, growing in your own spiritual life first before you can go out and give back. Is that something that you wrestle with ever? Is it something that is just as important in the sense of being discipled yourself, like being in the Word every day? Yeah, it is. It's something I've tried to work on this year. because the last two years I've done a daily Bible study with Don Christensen and a few other people. And what I found was when you write your stuff down, there's like visual evidence that you were in the Word. And if you're not writing stuff down, there's really not that much visual evidence.

25:05 And so, like, yeah, I was in the Word six times this week. So you're whatever. Well, then you look back and you're like, actually, I was in the Word for three times this week. And so we learned this week at one of our workshops that if you're in the Word at least four times, then it starts to translate into your life. And anything less than that, it just kind of doesn't even cause a blip in the way you think and the way you talk and the way you lash out at people. And four or more, it starts to get in you and you start to live out that faith better. So this year, visually, I look back the other day, and Jenny goes, how are you doing on your reading? And I would have, and every year I start this way. I start the first month and a half, I'm like, I'm doing it. And then I don't miss a day.

25:59 And then one spring training kicks off in February. I have a really great routine where I turn on my audio. Bible-wise, I'm driving to the field. I get to the field. I sit there for 15, 20 minutes. I do a little bit more. I write all my stuff down, do some prayers. It's just me in the car with the AC blowing. It's really nice. No sound, nothing. It's just me and the Lord. And then I go into the field and I start my day. But then once the season starts every year, I have this lull where I get back into that baseball swing and I start that routine all over again. And so then it becomes something I really, really struggle with. Francis, I want to talk about discipleship and the idea of people, our audience, sports fans, but also mostly Christians. But the difference between just being a follower of Christ or professing a faith in Christ, but then being a disciple of Christ and being disciple. What does discipleship look like from your perspective?

26:56 Yeah. And to me, I don't know, I have a hard time seeing in Scripture that there's such a thing as a person who believes in Jesus but doesn't follow him. You know, that calls himself a Christian but isn't a disciple. I just don't see how you can get that out of the New Testament. I know it's common in a lot of churches, like, I'm a Christian but I'm not a disciple. It's like, wow, that doesn't even make sense, you know? it doesn't make any sense biblically but anyways aside from that I mean as far as really being a disciple or a follower I mean discipleship I think we've gotten so skewed too you know we turned into like a one-hour meeting at a coffee shop with some other guy and yet when you look at what Jesus did in discipleship it was life on life follow me come with me see how I live because I want you to live the same way. It wasn't in this stagnant, you know, let's go through a book together. But it was in everyday life. That's why, you know, even we're talking about Jaime earlier, I remember when I first met him, he says, man, it was just so cool this year to play with the Cardinals. He says, because, man, other teams, the players are out partying and these guys are having Bible study with each other, you know, and it just had such an impact as he saw the way you guys lived and he was around you, it was just seeing a whole different type of lifestyle.

28:29 And that's what discipleship really is. And what I love, you know, because I was not going to say it about him, somebody who's the leader of that. And, you know, you have guys following you, looking at your life and depending on you. And that's why Paul says, 1 Corinthians 11, he goes, follow my example as I follow the example of Christ. Look at the way I live and live the way that I do. And it's been cool watching him do that with his team and just in baseball in general, in life. It's not, hey, let's have a study once a week, but it's watch my lifestyle and hang out with me and follow my example. And then someday they're going to go out and make disciples, which was so encouraging about that conversation.

29:20 What have you learned from Francis about discipleship and maybe implementing that into your life? I remember a couple of the visual things you've done over the years I remember the do you remember doing the chairs in PA one time where you were like alright here's the world and here's where we are I stole that from someone I think it's cool here's God right in this one chair and then we're right next to him and then he stays right there and then the world moves over here but we follow them, but we're still on this side of God from the world. And as it goes, we creep with that way, but we're still closer to God than they are, so we're okay, and so we always draw that line in the sand. And so as far as discipleship goes, the resources we've been given here at PAO, a lot of times they fuel me.

30:17 and I have from the PAO conference my financial advisor Don Christensen is probably my him and my agent are my two biggest spiritual mentors I don't know how many baseball players can say that their two biggest spiritual mentors are their financial advisor and their agent that is a huge blessing for me and they're always pouring into me and the lessons I learned here at PAO I always try to to pour those back into those younger players. And to my, you know, really what I want to do, what becomes evident to me every year I get to PAO is that I love being around people that are following and seeking the Lord. I need better community at home. And when I go home in the off season, I need better community there. And so the tricky thing for me is how do you weigh, and maybe this is a question for you on there, but it must be good, And how do you weigh the comfort of being in that environment all the time with great community at home, but also being okay not being comfortable going out and testing the spirit and putting yourself out there and be vulnerable and doing other things?

31:29 Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, I have to mix up my life. I think that's what was hitting me with the urgency thing. It's like, gosh, I'm getting into this weird routine, you know, that I kind of know what's going to happen tomorrow. And I don't believe that's the way the Holy Spirit leads us. He leads us through change. I mean, that's what repentance means is change. And every day there should be some sort of growth, something that stretches me. Because what used to require faith doesn't require faith anymore. You know, it used to scare me to get in front of a crowd. Now it's like, you know, it's not a, and so then I go, okay, what am I afraid of?

32:16 Evangelism is always, it's still terrifying to me. I don't know why. Maybe that's too strong of a word, but it's always awkward. It's like, gosh, okay, here we go. Let me just try to get in a conversation with this guy. But every day, just trying to stretch myself so I'm not doing the same thing and really asking that circle around me in my home, like, tell me when you feel like my life is just on cruise control because I don't want to do that. Because like we're saying, the days are evil. They're our adversary. Satan wants one day to run into the next. And so that's where we need our fellowship. It's not, sometimes fellowship can just almost make us plateau. oh, like, okay, I got my small group with my guys every week, and I know that. But when we get together, the Bible says we're supposed to spur one another on to love and good works.

33:12 And so to really use that time not to get comfortable again, but those people who really know us best, ask them to stretch us. And because we want to experience more of Jesus, it's not like this ascetic thing. And like, it's more like I know the more I step out in faith, the more I'm going to experience God. And I want to experience him. So you guys push me because my flesh will want to be comfortable. And my flesh will just want to sleep in and order room service and go another day. My flesh wants to just veg, stare at a movie, and just let my mind wander, you know? And so you need those people in your life to push you. Adam, you play a sport, though, that is so much about routine and reps and doing the same thing and getting and practicing over and over. So from a worldly standpoint or from a sports standpoint, reps is important in getting that sort of daily, every day, doing the same thing.

34:14 But then from a spiritual aspect, we're hearing from Francis here, like, get out of the comfort zone. Get out of the repetition every day. So how do you balance that, if that's even a balance? You know what struck me as you asked that question? I wasn't even thinking about it, but as you asked that question, it struck me that in baseball, it's good to have kind of like a core routine, right? That these are the things that I feel like really allow me to be successful, but then have that be small enough where you can still be inventive and try to figure out ways to get better on a lot of different aspects of it. Like, I don't have to eat Papa John's pizza the night before I pitch to succeed. You know, I can eat, I like to eat a certain something the night before I have protein. I eat some good vegetables and some, you know, whatever.

35:08 But it doesn't have to be a steak that's cooked this way with this and this and this. I mean, it can float. And my workouts, my movements need to be in this ballpark, but they can kind of float to give me freedom to try to get better and to see what works better. And so I'm wondering if, like you get up in the morning, and your core, you get up and you get in your prayer closet, and that's part of your core routine that you feel like, but then you're kind of open, right? It gives you room to float and see where you can improve, and I'm thinking that's a good comparison. What's that? Yeah, I mean, they say like in working out, not that I know a lot about it, but I hear. Well, thank you, thank you. Okay, I work out a little bit. You know, but, you know, like guys will tell me, though, like don't do the same thing. You got to almost confuse your muscle.

36:01 You know, like bring in a different routine, a different. And I think that's what I'm talking about. It's like, gosh, you just get too routine in life. And you've got to mix it up and do things that scare you. I hope those of you who are listening right now are going, gosh, what should I do today? I mean, it's just because otherwise another Christmas is going to go by. And you're like, wow, it's Christmas again? What did I do all year? Well, when you're constantly mixing it up, you know what you did because it's new. It's adventurous. And I think that's what God wants us to do. And I remember years ago just seeing this one worship leader at this school I would speak at a lot. and she would just sing with so much passion. And I remember her telling me, I go, man, how do you do that? Because you lead in chapel quite a bit and I feel like you're more excited this time than you were a couple months ago.

36:54 And she goes, every time I get up there, I just try not to do the same thing I did last time because I used to say, God, let us have a great worship experience like last week. She goes, but my God is not a duplicator. He's a creator. And so now it's like, okay, God, create something totally new this time. And I try to keep that mindset when I teach or through the week, like God, make this week, make this day. Okay, today, do something so crazy that I haven't experienced before. That type of mindset because otherwise the days will run together. Well, here's something new that I've been told you're going to be doing. So, Adam, you invited Francis to go hunting with you. Is that true? Yeah, we're going to try to get Zeke a buck this week. Yes, that would be great. Have you ever been hunting? I have. I actually have a couple of times. Okay.

37:45 Yeah, my son has never shot anything. You got a big old elk on your own. I did get an elk the first time I went out. Wow. With a bow. Okay. Mind you. A really big elk. Really? Yeah. I mean. Crazy things happen when he prays. Yeah, exactly. I got a bear, too. Did you really? I did. And it was because it was a ferocious bear. Of course. It was like a danger to the people. Yeah. And so they called me to hunt it down. Of course. Yeah. You were helping. I was helping people. That's what I do. That's what you do. Well, let's close this podcast with this. And I think I'm excited to see what comes out of the hunting experience between you guys. But let's ask this question. We always ask the question of what is the Lord teaching you right now? And I like asking that question to our guests. But I think for both of you guys, I want to ask it a little differently. And what is breaking your heart right now inside? Like, what is your spirit just saying, man, I just, this is just hitting me right in my soul right now.

38:46 Let's start with you, Adam. What is just breaking your heart right now? I don't know, breaking my heart is the right terminology for what I'm feeling right now. But the other thing I've felt convicted with, we did a workshop today and just kind of go over spiritual strengths and weaknesses type thing. And I have four daughters at home and a wife. And so that is a lot of women around me all the time. I'm not saying that's my weakness. That's not what I'm saying. That's one of my strengths, honestly. But one thing that, you know, you passed around a booklet and my wife filled it out for me and rated me and then I rated me and then I rated her or whatever. And so on a lot of different levels. And the thing that we both rang to me the lowest in was gentleness. and you know I'm reflecting on my time with my girls right now and I'm realizing that you know I can be a whole lot more gentle with their little feelings that they have because apparently women are a lot more you know feeling oriented than men are that's all I have is girls right now who knows we might have more but right now I got four girls and a wife and so I asked my wife I said, I'm bad at that, aren't I?

40:08 And she said, no, you're not bad at it. And then she kind of left it there. And I was like, okay, I'm not bad at it, but it means I can get better at it. She said, yeah, you can get a little bit better at it. So that's something that I'm going to take home with me is trying to figure out practical ways I can be more patient and gentle with my girls. Francis, how about for you? Breaking your heart. I think the thing that breaks my heart is when I look at the church in the U.S. or people who attend church services in the U.S., like there's just like this, like I just want to shake them. Do you understand how great this is, like what we have? I mean, it breaks my heart that like if you say, oh, Hillsong Unite is going to be there and John Piper is going to be preaching, you'll have this crowd.

41:03 but it's like oh we're gonna pray and take communion right it's like what do you understand like you get to come into the presence of the creator and talk to him you get to sit with other people and do something they've been doing for 2 000 years staring at the body of christ and going wow i'm actually a take of the body and blood of jesus and and god's watching you and you're obeying what he called you to do and believers have been doing for all this time. And now it's like, well, you know, if there's going to be a good speaker, there's going to be good music, then I'm excited to go and we'll flock. And it's like, do we not have any clue? I mean, people are walking out of these services every week on, nah, I didn't really like worship today. Like, do you realize what a stupid statement that is?

41:57 Like, the fact that that's normal, the fact that that's happening in every single gathering on Sunday morning should tell us something. I didn't like worship today. That is the stupidest sentence. Did you really think it was for you? Like, you really? Like, I just can't picture those four living creatures going, holy, holy. I didn't really like it today. like it's just we're so screwed up so self-centered we can't even see straight and it breaks my heart because like if you could see his word if you could understand who he is you'd always be thrilled about worship because it's about the object of the worship but somehow we've created this entertainment man what would you like in a church what would you like in a church mindset and I just dream of a day when people would be thrilled to get together in a room and sing without an instrument or just someone read the Bible and let's just tremble at it let's just take a piece of bread and just bawl our eyes out as we you know drink of this cup um and can we just flock to places because other solid believers are about to come in the presence of God and something miraculous is going to happen. He is Francis Chan. He's a pastor in San Francisco.

43:22 Tons of books, including Crazy Love. You can check them all out. And Adam Wainwright, St. Louis Cardinals pitcher. Guys, it's been a treat to talk to you both. And we really do appreciate you joining us here on the Sports Spectrum podcast. Thank you. Thanks, man. Thank you. And we are thankful to Adam Wainwright, St. Louis Cardinals pitcher, and Francis Chan, the founding pastor of Cornerstone Community Church and author of the highly successful books, Crazy Love and Forgotten God. We just thank them for joining us here on the podcast. Francis is the founder of Eternity Bible College as well, pastoring and discipling people for over 25 years. Adam, of course, is a two-time World Series champion and a three-time All-Star. What a conversation I thought that was. And just love their hearts, love Francis's heart for challenging us as believers in Christ to really go deeper with our relationship with God. So I appreciate their candor, their honesty, and really just their willingness to come on the podcast.

44:19 And we always want to hear from you. So if you have any feedback on this interview or you'd like to reach us, you can email me jason at sports spectrum.com. You can also find us on Twitter at sports underscore spectrum, and you can follow us there or on Instagram at sports underscore spectrum. Give us a follow on both places. And you can reach me on Twitter as well at Jason Romano. Love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your thoughts, your ideas, and any guest suggestions that you might have. We'd love to hear from you. And also a reminder as we approach the Christmas holiday that we want you to become a member of the Sports Spectrum family. It's very easy. Just go to sportspectrum.com. It's $36, tax deductible, for an entire year. And that gift gets you four magazines that we produce each year quarterly. And you also become a member of our family. And you help fund this podcast.

45:12 You help fund all of the content that you see at sportspectrum.com. And we've got some big plans in place for 2018. And we need your help. So this is a great way to kind of partner with us and get in line with what we're doing here. And it's really not a giant commitment with just $36. And it really goes a long way to helping this ministry stay afloat and really bring the content that we're bringing each and every week, especially here on this podcast. So check it out over at sports spectrum.com. Thank you so much for joining us here and we will see you next time on the sports spectrum podcast. Have a good one.