Marriage for God's Glory

0:00 It was after a trip to Africa that Francis Chan came back to his home in the United States and told his wife he thought God wanted their family to downsize. Lisa wasn't so sure. I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. And it was like this ripping that was happening. of course because God is so faithful and every time he says if you lose your life for my sake you will find it on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and eventually got to go to Africa with Francis you know and I was just broken hearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings on the outset this is family life today our host is Dennis Rainey and I'm Bob Lepine. Lisa Chan says that God's word is true when it says whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. That's true even in marriage. We'll explore that with Francis and Lisa Chan today. Stay tuned.

1:09 And welcome to Family Life Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. We've been hearing both last week and again this week from a lot of our listeners who are getting in touch with us about the special offer that expires this week on our Weekend to Remember Marriage getaways. For those of you who are new listeners to Family Life Today, The Weekend to Remember is the two-and-a-half-day getaway we do for couples in cities all across the country. It's a great romantic time away together where you learn what the Bible teaches about God's design for marriage. And if you sign up for one of these getaways before the end of the week, you will save 50% off the regular registration fee as a Family Life Today lister. So we're encouraging you to get more information. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com.

2:01 Find out when a getaway is going to be in a city near where you live. And then block out that weekend and call and register now to save 50% off the regular registration fee. The number to call is 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can also register online at FamilyLifeToday.com. And I know some of these getaways are starting to get close to selling out. So don't hesitate. Join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaway and register this week to save 50% off the regular registration fee. Now, I've got to be honest. I'm not sure I want to talk to the couple that we've got joining us today because they just shared with us that they've had like 12 fights in 21 years. And I'm kind of like, okay, bring me some couples I can relate to a little more, you know? Well, I was thinking we've been married double that and we've got more than 24 though. doubling your dozen that you've had.

3:01 Francis and Lisa Chan join us on Family Life today. Welcome back. Thank you. They've written a book called You and Me Forever. In case there is a listener who doesn't know who this couple is, they live in the Bay Area of Northern California. They are about church planting there, also ministering to men. I assume it's only men coming out of prison. Yeah. Yeah, we've been trying to start a women's home as well. So right now it's just the guys coming out of prison. I wanna go to something you mentioned in your book. You made this statement. You said, if you could manuscript your prayers of what you've prayed about for the last month, what would they reveal about you as a couple? So it's like what David says in Psalm 27, verse four, when he says, this one thing have I asked of the Lord, and that will I seek after, that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in his temple.

4:01 Like that was his one prayer request. God, I want you. I want you. I want to see you. I want to be with you. And so the question is, is give me a manuscript of your prayers for his last. I want to hear what do you hunger for? What do you want? You're coming before the creator, the sovereign one who's in control of this whole earth. and what are you asking for? And most of us are asking for fix this, make life easier, better for me, right? Amen. So if that's, I mean, is it illegitimate for us to pray? No. I'd like things to go better in my life? No, you know, it's the Lord tells us to bring what we desire, you know, before him, but also the things that we desire reveal a lot about us. You know, it opens our eyes to, wow, that's what I'm about is get rid of all my problems because I don't see that in scripture. You know, it's more about God, give me the strength to make it through this, develop my character through these trials.

4:58 You know, that's what I see in scripture. And how much of our prayers do I pray for Francis? Do I pray for his walk with God? Do I pray that God would help him in his moments of temptation? I mean, that's something that has developed in my life that softens my heart towards him, helps me to love him better. I want to be praying for him because who else is going to pray for him the way that I will? And one of the things that I try to do when I pray over my meal at lunch, I don't do it every time, but I try to pray for my wife, Barbara, and her walk that she'll see God show up in her life and she'll respond to him and she'll grow in her faith. And then if I'm having lunch with another guy, pray for his wife as well. I don't think a lot of us are challenging one another with that concept, Francis, that you speak of in your book of really making sure your prayers are about the agenda of what God's up to because he is at work in your spouse's life and your children and your extended family as well. I just recently started running, you know, I was getting out of shape.

6:02 And so I've been running around this track at my daughter's school and every lap I'll pray for a different kid, you know. And so it's nice to have seven kids and a wife. And so it's at least two miles a day that I'm running, which is good, you know. But as I'm praying, the prayers aren't, oh, help us get along better or help this, help that. It's like, God, make my wife just this amazing warrior for you, you know. Give her even greater love, greater capacity. Help my daughter as she's in the school right now to take a stand for you. You know, it's about your kingdom. Use them to influence other people. My kid's in grade school. My kid in Little League. You know, have them influence this team. It's about God. Your kingdom. Your kingdom come. Lisa, tell the truth. When he starts praying like that. Does it scare me? Do you get scared? No. You know, my immediate thought was, I'm so glad he's praying for me.

6:56 I need it. That is honestly my first thought. You know, I want to go back because you said your dad said no the first two times, Francis. They're going to feel so bad about that. But as a daddy, I understand wanting to protect my daughter. And along comes Francis who, as you said, we weren't sure whether he was crazy about God or just crazy. And your journey together has been a journey of risk and a journey of faith that honestly, I can understand a daddy going, this may be more risk than I raised my little girl for. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, and I've seen that tension in them. And there have been times when, I mean, I've just had to cry and be honest with them. Like, I need you to support me and say, you're never going to regret. surrendering to God and giving things up.

7:52 And that's hard when you have that parent's heart that immediately wants to protect. I have it too with all of my kids, so I do get it in a different way now. But how much I want to encourage parents to be that voice of courage for their kids. And married or not, married 20 years, 30 years, still be that voice that says, honey, go for it. You know, don't look back and surrender it all to God because he's got you. But there have to have been times when Crazy Francis came to you and said, I think the Lord's saying this. And your immediate answer wasn't, yeah, let's go for that, where you had to kind of go, really? There's a cost here. One of the hardest, the first most difficult was when he had come back from Africa and I had not been with him on that trip. And God completely wrecked him. and then he wanted to sell our home and cut our house size from 2,000 square foot to 1,000 square foot. It was literally right in half. We had two kids. We had a couple of people living with us.

8:56 We always have, but he wanted to move. He's like, I can't do this anymore. I need to give something up in order to love these kids that I saw. It was love motivated, which was so awesome, but I was so honest with him. I said, I wasn't with you. I don't feel love in my heart. I feel more like this is going to stink. No, I mean, I'm just being honest. I didn't want to give up my things. I didn't want to move into a smaller home. And it was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful and every time he says, if you lose your life for my sake, you will find it. On the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and eventually got to go to Africa with Francis, you know, and I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings on the outset. So was your immediate reaction was, I don't know.

10:00 It was, I don't want to, but I will do what is in your heart. I will not stand in the way of what you want to do. And were you still on the day you were moving into a 1,000-square-foot house, were you going, I don't want to do this? Or by that time, had you started to go, okay, I guess this is going to be okay, or what? Or did you negotiate a 1,500-square-foot house?

10:23 No, it was 1,000. And it was hard. I think the initial reaction was the hardest. And then it was, you know, swallow it. And then it was, this is going to be fine. and then it was, why am I so stupid? This has been the best thing. It was one of our favorite homes. We had the best neighbors that we reached out to and just loved and it was the tiniest little thing. We had six of us eventually there. We had two more kids there and then we had two girls living with us. So we moved up to eight living in that little tiny house. Francis, if I've learned anything in the years I've been married, in order for our wives to have that kind of response, you have to have loved her with a love that results in respect and the ability to trust when her heart isn't quite yet in it, but she knows she's got to go with you because she's committed to you and she's committed to the mission. Talk about your love for Lisa and how you have built that kind of trust? I think not to over spiritualize it, but I do really believe that one of the things I've been able to help Lisa with is to trust in the Lord. And every time we would sacrifice, we would be in tears almost like, gosh, can we ever give to the Lord without him giving back to us? You know, our life, one thing after, you know, whether it was giving, you know, giving this away, giving money away, giving whatever seemed like we were always blessed in return.

11:57 Not that we were doing it for that reason. It was just happening to us. And so she began to trust more and more. So when it came to a bigger decision like the house, she had seen God's faithfulness in the past. And I think that's where the trust was. She was trusting that I was following the Lord and the Lord was going to bless our steps as long as we just keep going and even sacrificing, denying ourselves during those times we didn't feel like it. But had you thought through what you were asking your wife to do? I was so scared. I mean, because I thought no one does this, you know? And yet in my mind, I'm reading scripture and going, why don't people do this? Like, it seemed very obvious to me biblically, but because I didn't have a model before me that showed me, oh, here's how you do it. And here's what comes out on the other end. I was scared. I was so afraid to tell her what was in my heart. And most days you were getting up and leaving the thousand square foot house and going somewhere else for the day, leaving her at home in the thousand square feet. I mean, at some level, I can hear a guy saying, look, I, my wife, she gets to decide the house we're going to live in because this is her thing. It's her home. It's her nest. Yeah. And at the same time, you know, we had been around the world. And so they would find us even right now having this conversation about a thousand square foot home with toilets and air conditioning, just absolutely laughable.

13:23 Like, are you kidding me right now? You know, they would just be beside themselves. That's a sacrifice. Exactly. Because this is their dream house. This is like their heaven. You know, so I don't want to sit here and go, oh, you guys, you really suffered. It's like, man, that's luxury. We're living in America. That's why it wasn't until after I had been with him into some of those areas of extreme poverty that I did feel so stupid for complaining and thinking that I was sacrificing so much. I said, oh, I would have sacrificed more. I said, we could live in a tent. Although that probably would be really hard. You kind of look at him. Don't plant any ideas. That's what she was thinking. She was going, oh, no, we're going to downsize from a thousand It has crossed my mind.

14:15 Francis, let's talk about how you are the spiritual lover and leader of Lisa and your family. You got a lot going on in your life out there. How do you love Lisa? How do you provide the kind of mandate that Ephesians 5 talks about? Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church. it's something the Lord put in me. And it's weird because, you know, I didn't really have that growing up. And yet it's so natural to me. Like, it's not like I have to force myself to love my kids and enjoy them or force myself to spend time with Lisa. I am gone a lot, but all the kids know I want to be at home with them. And a lot of times I'll take them with me on some of my speaking engagements. I'll take one kid at a time.

15:07 I spent a lot of time somehow. It all works. It's almost like with money. It seems like as much as you give to the Lord, somehow there's always enough to get by. And I see the same thing happening with time. I go, gosh, Lord, how am I doing all these things? And yet I don't feel like I'm neglecting any of my children or my wife. We have a great relationship. Our house is filled with laughter. I mean, I'm coaching Little League right now. I mean, it's just, how do I get time for all of this stuff? Somehow God allows it to happen. And so I do serve kids, you know, my kids through relationship, through just laughing with them and teaching them and disciplining them and getting the time with them. And a lot of times we're just in ministry together. Lisa, I'll let you answer the question too. How does he love you?

15:59 Well, practically speaking. Not in an idealistic way. Yeah, in a practical way. Yeah, one of the nicest things that every mother will appreciate is those nights when he'll see that I have been in the home. I have had the little people all over me and the big ones sometimes that have the emotional needs that go far beyond your little ones. And he'll just say, honey, I got this. You go to Target.

16:28 Just walk around Target aimlessly with a Diet Coke in your hand. And that is such a blessing. He knows when I need a little moment to myself. And he knows those times when he'll say, hey, we've got our high schoolers still at home. They're going to watch the little ones. You and I are going to go grab dessert real quick. And that's how he shows love. It's to sneak a little time away, grab some dessert, or just to let me go have a moment to myself. As I hear you guys describe your marriage and how this works out for you, I hear a strong sense of mutuality. But I also hear there's leadership and there's responding to leadership. And, you know, there's tension even among Christians today about what's this supposed to look like? How are we supposed to do this? Is the man supposed to lead?

17:21 Is the wife supposed to submit? But unpack how you think that's supposed to work and why we're confused about it today. I think we're confused about it because we've rarely seen a good picture of it. We live in a culture that's very anti-authority because when have you found godly serving authority? And yet that's the picture of God. So it gets to the point where we even question God's authority. Like he has no right to give me these rules. And we forget that, no, those rules were to protect you. They were to give you life. He's a wonderful authority. I mean, that's the whole rebellion of Adam and Eve. It's like, well, did he really say? And that shirt does look good. And it's like, no, you're going to ruin everything. Authority can be beautiful. Jesus, who knew who he was, he understood he was the Lord. And yet he goes and he washes the disciples' feet. He dies on the cross for them.

18:16 That's our picture of authority. That's what the head of the home is supposed to do. And if you had that, then I believe you would see a lot more women going, okay, I see that. I see how it can be good to be under their authority. And so I see in scripture, it's pretty clear to me that the man is supposed to be the head of the home, but he's supposed to lead in a way that's like a servant, that is Christ-like. When a man serves, denies himself, loves, leads, and really takes care of his wife, It makes her responsibility and her response reasonable. And Lisa, in the book, I so enjoy what you write on page 88 because you talk about five reasons why what has become a very nasty word in our culture, a politically incorrect word, the word submission, but it's a biblical term. You talk about why we should do that.

19:12 I want you to share that with our listeners because there's probably a listener or two who's losing heart in well-doing and needs to be reminded why it's so important. You know, it was hard when we were writing the book because we could write a whole giant book about submission and authority, right, and leadership. But we didn't want that to be the focus of the book. But it is important to understand for a woman, especially because so many women will say, my husband doesn't deserve to be submitted to. He is not a good leader. He's not following the Lord. And I just want to say the first thing that I point out is that we're not submitting to our husband's perfection and the fact that they deserve it. We're submitting to the fact that God has given them that position of authority. So we're submitting to a God-given position and not perfection. There are times even in the beginning when Francis was not kind and nice about his authority and leadership. but I'm still responsible before God to say, you know what?

20:11 He has given him this position. You can't get around it through scripture. It's not one place that it says, wives, submit to your husbands. It's a few times. Look it up in your concordance. And we can't be so afraid of obeying the Lord. There is freedom in it. The second thing is only our submission to God should be absolute. We don't submit to our husbands if they ask us to sin, obviously. There is a limit in that sense. We are all under the umbrella of God's authority. So if our husband steps outside of that, then we are not to join them in that. You don't follow him there. Right. I think one of the most important things we have to realize is that we find ourselves thinking that we're fighting against our husbands, but ultimately we're fighting against God. And that is not something we want to do. The scripture says that God opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble. And it takes humility to follow someone's lead.

21:08 But look back at the very beginning. God said, it's not good for the man to be alone. I am going to create a helpmate for him. And why can't we embrace the beauty of that and say, wow, I want to give my husband the benefit of my wisdom, my insight. And then after I've laid that all down and I've showed him, I've shared my thoughts and my heart to allow him to lead, to make the ultimate decision, knowing that I've poured my heart out to him and helped him understand my perspective. It may not always match up. We may not always agree. But give your husband that benefit. He needs you. You are his helpmate. Your belief in your husband is empowering and affirming to his leadership. And I think, I'm looking at Frances, who's nodding his head. She has made you a better leader. Oh, yeah.

22:00 Because she's a strong woman. Absolutely. I mean, if you knew me before I met her, too, after you would say, wow, that was a major transformation. Those of my friends who may be listening and knew me before Lisa would amen that wholeheartedly. And those who know us now would amen. There's no way he could pull off what he's doing without her. Knowing that she believes in you, respects you, that she'll follow you. Yeah. That puts wind in your sails. Oh, that, you see, because my parents were dead by the time I was in junior high. So I've never had support. I never had anyone believing in me. I didn't have a cheerleader, anyone in my corner. And yet the Lord was enough. The Lord was absolutely enough. So yes, you know, amen and amen. But he created us in such a way that, man, when I finally had someone who believed in me, like another human being who I knew was going to be by my side and support me, even when everyone else thought I was crazy, I mean, we didn't know what was going to happen after we got married.

23:02 And I thought, oh, I'll start a church. I mean, it's like, you know how few people believed that I could pull anything like that off? You know, it's like, really, Frances? Seriously? And yet she believed. She believed in me. And I can't say enough. You know, one of the things I have to say is that the thought of coming before the Lord at the end of my life and having him say, why did you prevent your husband from doing all these things I had planned for him? That is part of what scares me. And I think we have to realize that as women, we want to be life givers and we want to put wind in their sails, as you put it. We don't want to stand in the way and limit them and limit what God is going to do through them. that is what should scare us. You two are really partners in this thing, aren't you? Yeah, definitely. And everything Lisa said, this is what the book was about, eternity. And what she said, I'm going to stand before God. And I think about, because I love Lisa, I think she's going to stand before God. We have this wonderful family full of laughter, everything else, but that's going to be over in a second. Just to put it bluntly, we're going to die. Any moment, Lisa I are going to stand before God himself.

24:24 And what are we going to care about? And so if I love her, then it's not just about this time here. I want to prepare her for that moment when she faces him. And in the same way, you know, and yes, we are saved by grace. But I want her to know, no, I accomplished the work you gave me to do, Father. While I was on that earth during that brief little vapor of a time, I did what you wanted me to do. And I think that's true love. is when you're looking at someone and not just thinking the here and now where I benefit, I think about the forever and ever and ever, how are you going to, what's that existence going to be like? And it's based upon how we live now. Is that really your handprint on the cover? No. My hand would not fit on the book. I was just looking at your hand. I know. You've got huge hands. Freaky, you know. Scary. We do have copies of your book, You and Me Forever, in our Family Life Today Resource Center.

25:19 You can order a copy online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. You and Me Forever, Marriage in Light of Eternity by Frances and Lisa Chan. Again, find it online at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today. And don't forget, if you have any interest, and I hope you do, and come into one of our weekend remember marriage getaways this spring. They're going to be in more than 50 cities across the country. Sign up this week and you save 50% off the regular registration fee. It's a special offer we're making for Family Life Today listeners. It expires this weekend. If you have any questions about the getaway, call us or go online at familylifetoday.com. And can I just say for you to have a couple of days where the two of you get away and recalibrate and refocus and breathe a little fresh air into your marriage, that would be good for anybody.

26:15 And if it's been a while since you've done that, you ought to go ahead and make plans now to be at one of the getaways and save a little money in the process, okay? Sign up at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to get registered for an upcoming Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaway. If you want to buy a gift card for somebody to attend the getaway, those are available at 50% off the regular registration fee as well. So get the details at familylifetoday.com or call 1-800-FL-TODAY and join us at an upcoming weekend to remember marriage getaway. Now tomorrow we want to talk about how marriage and ministry can coexist, how you can be in alignment as husband and wife in being involved in kingdom work. Our guests, Frances and Lisa Chan, will be back with us again tomorrow. Hope you can be here as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team.

27:11 On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lapine. We'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a production of Family Life of Little Rock, Arkansas. A crew ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.