The Church God Wants

0:15 just tells us of your sovereignty. You are in control of everything. You knew when we would be born. You knew we would be in this room tonight, God. This isn't an accident. This isn't just another meeting, another gathering. It's something you designed when you created us, Lord, and that's just brilliant. We can't even imagine that. And so God, we want to make the most of these few minutes we have together to honor you and just figure out how to be your ministers, how to be your ambassadors. And so thank you for these men and women in this room, my brothers and sisters, God. Help me to say things that will matter a hundred years from now. God, that we can look back on in this little room when we're in your presence and say, gosh, something happened there. God, make it that real.

1:08 In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Man, that's hilarious about that story. But Daniel, just so you guys, so I can get him back. I mean, he, you know, I taught a preaching class at this college that we started in Simi Valley. And, you know, every year, you know, like I'd get a new crop of students, you know, 20, 30 students in this room. And, you know, you start to get to know their personalities and they would take turns preaching. And when it was Daniel's turn to preach, I'm just being honest, I was kind of dreading it. Because he seemed so shy and like mousy and like, all right, you know, get some coffee. and you know, let me get ready. And I just remember the moment he got up there, our whole class was like, what in the world? Like it just, no one was expecting that sermon. Like you've got to be kidding me. And it was pretty awesome. And so lately we've been having conversations and we've just kept close, you know, as close as we can with the distance and everything. And just always appreciated his heart and his faith and how he stretched me in some areas.

2:31 And I love, I even steal things from his sermon. Since people don't know him, they think I came up with it. But, you know, lately we've just been having a lot of conversations about church. And just as God's been blessing and seeing things that are happening in the church gathering, you guys have been a part of just, okay, moving forward now. What do we need to do? Because, man, you did some things, and then you got to a point where you just felt like you hit a wall, and I don't want to hit that wall. And so how do we change some of the things in the beginning when it's still fresh? Because you know, once you get stuck in a pattern for a few years, then it's a lot harder to change. And so what are some of those things? And a lot of it is stuff like this, where it's no different from what Jethro told Moses. Like, you can't do it this way.

3:27 You can't just have everyone come and listen to you, and you make all the decisions. You've got to get other people involved. You've got to split this thing up. Each of you, you know, you need to be multiplying yourselves. You need to have people that are under your care. You know, just like Paul said, you know, it's like, gosh, you should be teachers by now, and you still need someone to feed you? I mean, that was the frustrating thing for me. It was like 16 years in one church. And I mean, I had people that were in there 10, 15 years. And you're trying to please everyone, thousands of people. And they're still coming up complaining like, oh, you didn't feed me enough. And it's like, really? Man, you should be feeding other people. And you're coming up. And I mean, one time I got so frustrated and I blew it. I shouldn't have used this illustration, but I got a couple of these little toy plastic balls, and I stuffed it in my shirt. And I said, this is what I feel every Sunday. Come on up here, let me feed you. I said, doesn't this look ridiculous? And everyone's laughing. I go, but this is what I feel like. Why am I still feeding you? This is ridiculous. You should be feeding other people? And how do we get you out there using your gift, ministering to other people?

4:54 And one of the things I've been looking at now as a church is I look at the people in my congregation and I see them as my children. And yet with my children, I don't tell my kids, hey, just live at home until I die. I tell them, no, I'm going to train you up. and by the time you turn 18, I want you to leave. And I want you to get your own jobs. I want you to learn how to live on your own. I want you to start your own families because if you think you're going to live under my roof for the rest of your life, it's going to make you weak. And I will not be doing my job unless I teach you how to stand on your own two feet because dad's not going to be here forever. And we haven't run church that way, like the family. where we teach people and disciple them to where they can stand on their own two feet. I mean, for most people who attend churches all across America, I'm talking about more than 99%.

5:55 If you take out the senior pastor, they wouldn't know what to do. They have no idea. And just like I want to raise kids that if I were to die, they're fine. I taught them how to stand on their own. They know how to work a job. They're good. In the same way, I started looking at my congregation that way and going, look, I want to know that if, you know, what's your name? Tricia, you know, was the only believer here in, what city are we in? Where? Lomita? Okay, so if Tricia was the only believer in Lomita, she'd be fine. She would know how to walk with the Lord and grow in the scriptures on her own. In fact, she would know how to go out and share her faith with other people. And she would know how to disciple them, baptize them, you know, gather a group together, you know, figure out how to pray together with other people and live as the church with other people.

6:54 That's the goal now. And so a lot of what we see in church where everyone's dependent on some mega church speaker, man, those days have just got to die. and we've got to start discipling our people to where they can stand on their own two feet and go out and make disciples because that's what's in us anyways. Like you have it in you. I know if you are a believer, then you feel sick to your stomach that you have not talked to your next door neighbor about Jesus because it's in your DNA. Once the spirit changed your heart, you became a slave to the things of God and you started having the mind of Christ and you hate being a coward, right? And even though in the flesh you fight it, but that's why Paul's like, God, pray for me, you guys, pray. You know, he says to the church, you know, pray for me so I could speak the word boldly like I should, because I know that's in me.

7:48 And Timothy, you've got to step it up. That spirit of fear, you know that's not from God. And then Peter and John would gather the believers to pray for their courage, because it's in us. And we're not doing people favors by saying, yeah, just sit and listen to me for the rest of your life. But instead, if we follow the biblical pattern of discipleship and saying, no, you need to have your own children, your own spiritual children. And so what we've been doing in San Francisco now is we're breaking people up and saying, look, I those are your sheep. Those are your sheep. And there's something about having that responsibility, that ownership. I mean, when you have five or six. I remember I was 18 when I was first given a group of guys by my youth pastor. I was a senior in high school, and he gave me the freshman guys and said, those are your disciples now.

8:44 Man, are you serious? You know, like I'm 18. I've only been a Christian for a couple of years, and you're entrusting this group of guys to me. And man, I just took ownership. Like, okay, I'm their leader. I'll figure it out. I mean, it was crazy. I didn't know what I was doing. I remember one guy started drinking, and this was in Stockton, California, and I remember just driving him, you know, downtown to where all the drunks were, you know. I mean, I'm 18. I take this 14-year-old kid, and we just walk the streets, and people are talking to themselves, throwing bottles. I'm like, this is what you want to be? You know, I mean, I just, I don't know, right? I'm just trying stuff. I don't know. And I remember another kid, his mom called me and just had some questions about parenting. Like, what do I do with my son?

9:36 I mean, I'm 18. I'm going, let me ask my mom. I don't know, you know. But it's the same thing. Those of you who were parents, what did you do when you brought that baby home? You got scared, right? You didn't know what to do. No one really told you, but you figured it out. Why? Because you knew, there's no choice. I'm it. I'm it. I've got to figure this out. I will figure this out because I love this child. And it doesn't mean you don't get help when the baby's sick. You take them to the hospital. You still have other people. You still take them to school to learn, you know, and whatever else. But you have that responsibility. And in the church, we've been trying to figure out ways to just make people responsible. and go, look, those eight people, you're their shepherd. You're their spiritual parent.

10:28 You're not their small group leader. It's not just a facilitator. I want you to own them like your spiritual kids. You know, like they're your own kids. So everything rises and falls with you. And that doesn't mean that you need to know the answers to every one of their counseling questions. We have resources. We have elders. You can bring them to us. Well, you know, because in the same way, I take my kids to doctors. I'll take my kid for a basketball coach or whatever. But it's my child. And you give people ownership. And what we've done, just so you get some background, is I just didn't want a church that was built around me this time.

11:14 I started that church in Simi Valley out of my house. It grew to like 4,000 or 5,000 people. We planted a bunch of churches from it. We started a college, sent missionaries out. But there was a... We just got stuck after a while because there was no room to grow. You know, if you have four services and they're all packed out... what else do you do? And I found people that were there that had been there forever that were taking those steps of faith. And to me, it was just, to me, some of it was just logic. Like I go, okay, we have the Holy Spirit in us. He says, you'll receive power to be my witnesses. That's why you have the Holy Spirit in you, is to be his witness. And that's why it drives you nuts when you know you're chickening out. I felt it. You felt it. It's like, oh, I know the way I'm supposed to be. I hear about people, you know, who actually live out what the Spirit tells them to do.

12:19 But I struggled when I looked at a church of 4,000. Why? Because when we had 40 people and we grew to 400, I thought, that's awesome. That's a great thing. That means those 40 people reached out. If they're salesmen and they each made 10 sales, I'm like, this is pretty good. You know, this is good. Look what we did. Our 40 people grew to 400. But then when I had 400 people and we grew to 4,000, I go, okay, now that's awesome. Now, Lord, you entrusted me with 400 people, 400 salesmen, and we grew to 4,000. They each made 10 sales. But now I have 4,000 salespeople.

13:10 And that's a huge cost for those who, well, you don't have to run a business to figure that out. 4,000 staff, and we make maybe 100 sales? That's failure, isn't it? You know how much it costs to run a church of 4,000? 4,000 salespeople, how many sales are being made? And I'm going, whoa. I mean, you would fire someone with an army that big that is producing that little result. But people don't think about that. They go, well, bring those 100 people on stage and 100 people came to the Lord, but it took 4,000 of you. We overlooked that, and it cost how many millions of dollars? So 4,000 people plus six million dollars equals 100 converts? Like, it's just, Matt, I'm sorry, Asian, I think this way. Like, I just go, not good deal. You know, this isn't working. You know, that doesn't make sense. That's a failure. Yet at the point of failure, that's when everyone wants to interview me and ask, oh, how do you get that mega church going?

14:25 And I'm going, why are you interviewing me now? This is not success. And it is not success when I know that if I'm not preaching, at least a third of them won't show up. That's ridiculous. And I remember my mentor, who's a pastor in India, was driving me to this event I was speaking at, and there were camels and horses, one of those big old things with lights and crazy music, and he just laughed. He goes, you Americans are so funny. He goes, no one will show up unless you have a great band or a great speaker. I'm like, yeah? What's your point? and he says man in India we love just to get together to pray when we hear that believers are gathering to pray like we get excited when we know they're gonna just break bread as a family we get excited and I just thought gosh the Lord looking down and what what does he want to see like like these people like they they just love the fact that there's going to be prayer because they believe when they get together that that God's going to answer.

15:41 And so they're flocking to this place. Meanwhile, in America, oh, Hillsong's going to be there. You know, what attracts us, what gets us there? Is it this speaker, this band? Try to think of it from God's perspective of what he wants. And we're like, wow, look at these people. They're flocking just to break bread, to remember my son. versus these people only flock if they're entertained by this person or this person or this fan. Like that whole attractional thing. I mean, I get the intention. But it's causing us to fall in love with people and not in love with the Lord and not in love with prayer and believing in the supernatural. There seems very little that's biblical about it. Um, so all these things got me to question, you know, when I started realizing I'm accountable as the shepherd of these thousands of people, that's a tremendous resource.

16:47 And I don't have anything for them to do. Um, the way the system is set up, um, I can't even tell them everyone bring a friend. We won't fit. I, it's set up to where I'm telling them, basically, I don't believe you could all lead one person to the Lord this year. it's the system itself is set up that way. Now, it was great when we were small and we had room to grow, but it always hits that point where you can only go so far and then just the over-dependence on a person. So I sought out to say, let's just do it differently this time. And, you know, it's kind of funny because right after I got married 21 years ago was just with my wife going, you know, let's just figure something out. Let's just start in our living room. And then it grew to this monstrous church. And it's just funny, 20 years later to go, let's just start in our living room again.

17:44 And let's do it different this time. Let's make sure that it doesn't get centered around me. Let's make sure that the people are actually using their spiritual gifts. Because everyone has not just a tiny gift. We're talking about a manifestation of the Holy Spirit himself for the common good. So if you've got 4,000 people that have this insane power from God and they're not using it for each other, that's terrible leadership. I've got to stand before God on that one. I just let them keep coming and be dependent on me. And I just fed them every week. I can't let that happen. I can't let them waste this resource they've been given by God. And so let's figure this out this time. And so we started with a group of like 20 people in my house.

18:38 And I said, look, you guys, I will not be your pastor six months to a year from now. Six months to a year from now, you're going to hate me for this because we're going to live like a family, like the Bible says. Because the Bible says the world's supposed to be attracted by our love. You know, Jesus says when you become one, like the Father and I are one, that's when the world's going to believe that I'm the Messiah. And say, this is what was supposed to cause people to believe. Not a great speaker, not some scholar that comes in with his apologetic facts. Those are all good things. Not against that. I mean, that's my life, you know, pursuing, speaking, and this and that. I'm just saying that's not the system that God said. God says when you become one, like the Father and I are one, then the world's going to believe that you're loved by God, and that Jesus was sent by God.

19:33 And Paul says when you have one mind, one spirit marching side by side for the sake of the gospel, then the world's going to believe in their destruction and your salvation. That's a crazy statement. He's saying, look, when you guys can become these bodies that are just one, united like family and fearless, the world's going to believe in their own destruction. Which is crazy to me because I'm going, no one believes in their own destruction right now. No one believes in a second coming. No one believes in judgment. Even in the church, they're questioning whether God judges anymore. Which is crazy to me because I'm just going, read it. You get to page two and he kills everyone. You know? Like, this is a loving God. They're like, well, how could a loving God punish?

20:27 Read. Read how he tells, I'll kill the firstborn of everyone in Egypt. And read about the weeping and the wailing. Read Exodus 32, 33, and telling the Levites, just run back and forth and just slaughter your brothers. This is God. And we're going, well, that's Old Testament. Yeah, because he really mellows out in Revelation. you know we live in a time where i'm going this is ridiculous you guys this is our god no one believes in that and and and so you think well maybe if i walk through yes walk through scripture yes do all those things but you got to understand what the bible says is when we are united striving side by side for the sake of the gospel when we live like that early church that's when we're going to see the fire come down.

21:24 And people will believe in their destruction, which isn't like the most logical of equations. Because in our own human mind, if we lean on our own wisdom and understanding, we think, oh, have some celebrities and athletes become Christians, bring them up on stage, then bring some scholars and some scientists to prove that the world was actually created and to prove evolution false. Bring some archaeologists to explain the veracity of Scripture and its authenticity. Talk about prophecy. This will get people to believe. That's our logic. Bring in a good band. Bring in a good speaker. Have these programs. That's our logic. And Jesus said, Now, become one. Get the church to be so united that they've never seen love like this before, and then they're going to believe.

22:23 And the thing you've got to understand is, I know your logic doesn't go there, but would your logic have come up with march around the city seven times? The walls will collapse. Would your logic be, just hold Moses' arms up? That always works. You know? Well, this book is about a book of faith. Who is not that arrogant person who thinks, I've got the plan, I've got the system, I've got the strategy. And who just goes, well, he says this will work. Okay? That when we become one, like the father and son are one, that people are going to believe. And it doesn't make sense to me, but let's go for it. That's the way I think. I go, okay, let's create this family then. And I tell this group, you know, in my house, we've got to become family because that's what you see in this.

23:22 I mean, love one another. This is how they're going to know you're my disciples is by the love where someone walks in and goes, I've never seen people love like this before. You see that in Acts chapter two, right? When it started, it's like no one had any need. It's like, man, they're giving each other the shirt off their back. And what happened? People, the Lord was adding to their number daily. Those who were being saved. Why? It was the fulfillment of scripture. It was when they were united, you know, that the fire came down and things were happening. So they believed, they trusted. That was the fulfillment of what Jesus prayed. And I'm just going, it's no different today. but when's the last time you walked in a Christian gathering that if an unbeliever had walked in, he or she would have thought, I've never seen unity like this.

24:22 I've never seen love like this. Can you think of any time in your life when you've seen that in a Christian gathering? see this stuff wasn't even on the radar believe it or not when i planted my first church i didn't think about loving it all i thought about is getting a bunch of people in the room to hear me share the word of god so they could have these walks with the lord there's nothing wrong with that that's good stuff i thought i'm going to preach this book and i'm not going to back down. I praise God for guys like Daniel that go, man, this isn't a cutesy message, but it is what the Bible says, so here we go. That's great. Those are good things. That's what I started the church on, but I never once thought, love one another. I just thought, okay, I need a worship leader. I want a band. I remember saying specifically, I would love to have a band on our first official Sunday. And I, you know, here's what I want. Will someone take care of the kids?

25:31 We got to have child care. Will someone figure out a sound system? Will someone try to figure out where we're going to actually meet? These were the things. How are we going to take an offering? These were the things that were the absolutes to me. Did I think about the biblical priority? the biblical priority was love. But I seriously, I didn't care if the people loved. I mean, that'd be nice. I mean, I don't want them to hate each other, but the whole thought was just get them in a room, have them enjoy the service, get something, maybe get convicted, maybe get encouraged, and go home and have a great walk with the Lord. That's all I thought about. it wasn't until years later as i'm looking at scripture and going wow what does god want you know and i i talk about this if i were stuck on an island and i just read this book over and over and over never and never attended a church service but i just read this book like what would be my natural conclusion i just i just pictured myself okay i'm on that island. I'm reading everything I know of scripture. What would I think of all those Old Testament stories? Jesus died on the cross. The Holy Spirit's coming and falling upon them, you know, in the early church. And now the early church gets kind of crazy. It gets a little messed up. And now here's revelation. Here's the way it's going to end. What would I think? Okay, now a ship's coming. He's going to rescue me. Okay, what's going on in my mind? For me, based upon a simple reading of scripture over and over, I would think, God, I need this Holy Spirit. I need this Spirit I read about, or I'm dust. Like, this is the miracle. This is everything. I need Holy Spirit. Come, enter me.

27:24 Fill me. I want to hear from you. I want to move with you. I want to be empowered by you. I trust. I believe Jesus. I want to be found in him, not any righteousness of my own. I want to be found in him, filled with that Spirit. And now, let me find other believers, and let me find them and be one with them. And we'll go out as this army and start reaching people. And if I heard coming off of that boat that, hey, there's a church down the street. And after just reading the scriptures over and over and I walk over there, what would I expect to see? Think about it. Wouldn't you expect like, okay, here's a group of those people I read about all these years. And they're gathering together. I'm probably going to walk in and they're just going to love on me. You know, they're just going to give the shirt off their back and go, man, you've been on an island.

28:16 Man, come on over. Let me take care of you, whatever. And we're on a mission. Here's how we're trying to reach our city. Here's people we're setting. That's not what I would get, though. I'd walk in the back, see a few people maybe talking to each other, then shut up. Let's sit down. It's time for service. Let's sing some songs. Maybe good, maybe bad. I don't know what the singing is like. Someone speaks for 40 minutes.

28:46 And where's everyone going? They're heading home. See you next Sunday. It's like, really? Like, how did we get there? And we don't have to do things like that just because that's what's laid out before us. All through Scripture, you see someone that reads the Word tears his clothes. We can't do this anymore. This is not what he asked for, right? I mean, that people stood up and said, no, I'm not doing it like this anymore because I see what this says and I'm going after it. I'm going after it. And I believe that's what God's doing here. Some of you are just going, you resonate with what I'm saying because you've read this book and you go, I've always known there was more.

29:40 And so we've pursued that type of unity. And I've told the people, look, within six months to a year, we're going to split into two churches. And I won't be leading either one of them. I'll be training people. And then you're going to go and split into two churches. And then you'll do the same thing all over again. As you guys go reach out to people and you're raising up leaders and you're living like a family, you know, have people blown away by your love and make communion central, make the Bible central, make prayer central, like they did in the early church. The words of scripture, you can just read it. There's power in them. You don't need someone just up front explaining everything to you. Yes, there's teachers or whatever else, but let's do it. You know, and so nine months later, we split into two churches. And then nine months later, those two churches split into two churches. Now we've got four churches, and now we're getting ready to split again. And it's, it's, and I'm not the shepherd of any of them. They're shepherding their own people.

30:42 They're shepherding their own families. I mean, that's, I believe what the future can be if you in this room take responsibility and say, you know what, that's scary, you know, but it's not as scary as taking a kid home from the hospital and you figured it out. And in the same way, you'll figure it out. And that's what makes you stronger is that responsibility when you start. Because how many people are in church their whole lives in America and have never said to someone, follow my example as I follow the example of Christ? you know we don't take that leadership stance and we never become spiritual parents ourselves we don't actually make disciples we just sit and we just switch churches when there's a better speaker down the road you know or we get in a fight with someone and then we split because we start fighting with each other and i was telling daniel and uh and the elders of the church you know i love my church so much you know i love them is they're out on the streets throughout the week and in the workplace is sharing the gospel and i'm just like man right on you know getting rejected and this and that and as a pastor you just you love people like that you know where people that i wouldn't normally get along with you know and just in the flesh it's like in the spirit i'm crazy about them because they're actually doing something and sacrificing and stepping out in faith um you know and i was telling them how you know i was hearing from different i always sit by different people on airplanes and a lot of them are in the military and they just tell me about the fighting that goes on within the army itself.

32:42 People committing suicide and they just don't get along until they get into battle. And that's why they can't just be at these camps for too long. They got to be released into battle or they'll fight with each other. But once they get into battle, man, then it's a band of brothers. Then it's like, I love you guys. Come on. Oh yeah, you're excited for everyone on your team when you're on the battlefield, when you're in the mission field. But when you're just in a gathering, it's really, you're just going to annoy each other to death. I mean, that's what we do. That's what we're good at. But when you know other people are fighting and facing the same rejection that you faced, it's like, I love these people. And so it's been really fun for me just seeing this group of people grow in love with each other. But I just couldn't be more proud of them as they're out sharing the gospel.

33:37 on their own initiative. And just these groups, every day of the week, I guarantee you, there's someone from one of our gatherings that's leading a group out evangelizing, sharing the gospel. And I was so blessed one Sunday just to sit in on one of the gatherings. They only had like 15 people that week. But they just went around sharing about their week. And every one of them, as I heard, every one of them shared the gospel that week. with an unbeliever. And I thought, they don't even realize. I'm sitting there just going, this is beautiful. Because in an average church of a thousand, how many people you think verbalize the gospel to an unbeliever?

34:22 You think 15? Maybe. And we're okay with that? Like, that's crazy. That's how far this thing has drifted. And it's like, man, as the Lord looks down, and I just go, man, he loves this little army right here. It's like, and as a pastor, I'm thrilled to be the pastor of that army right there. And to think that I'm an elder of that group, right on. I'll take that. That's an army I'm proud of that I go, okay, Lord, you asked me to present a church to you. Take this one. Look at this one. These guys were not ashamed of you this week. They're outside, and they love each other. They care for each other's needs. They know each other. They're praying together on a weekly basis, gathering together, trusting that you're going to answer their prayers. I mean, that's what we have to understand. It's not just, I think this will work.

35:17 It's more, I think this is what God asked for. He says he wanted that type of love, that type of unity. And so if it's not happening in this structure or in this gathering, we need to repent and figure out a way to make it happen. because we can't just have these gatherings where people don't love each other deeply.

35:38 See, when I was younger, I used to just be thrilled that I would see a sign that said Bible Church. But you start reading Scripture and you realize God's not excited just because there's a gathering. How many times in this book does He say, oh, stop it with the noise of your songs. Stop praying. I'm not even listening to you guys. Oh, that someone would shut the doors to that temple that you might not uselessly kindle fire on my altar. Oh, if you don't repent, I'm just going to remove that lampstand from its place. I mean, he wants something. There's always been an offering that's acceptable and an offering that's rejected. And what does he say he wants of the church? He wants this loving community, this family, this body, he says, where it's like, man, every part is so important, the fingers, the toes, and you're striving side by side.

36:37 There's this unity. So that's what I want to bring to God rather than saying, God, I got 5,000 people to show up. I didn't ask for that. What did I ask for? Oh, yeah, oneness. you wanted your body to look like no other gathering on this earth and so that's what i'm after and i pray that the lord puts that on your heart to say you know what yeah give me some people i'll go out find some people but i want the real thing and that's kind of was my mindset going and moving to san francisco is like i just want to start over let me find some believers or unbelievers have them hear the word of God and if they want to live as one as a family then join me let's go but I don't care yeah right now there's only like 100 120 of us right now that's cool but the truth is we could we can double overnight and we can keep doubling overnight because we're meeting in homes now. It costs zero. It doesn't cost us a dime. No one gets paid. Everyone does it as a layperson, and we all have jobs. It doesn't cost a dime, which I love. It's just because so many churches are shutting down because of money and whatever else, and all of our money goes to the mission. It goes overseas or to people who are in need, and it's like, this is great. Because we all know like a church of 10, 20 people can meet in a home, right? And you don't need to work full time to take care of 10 or 20 people. Just disciple a couple of them, disciple a couple of people, you're done. You know, and you can live as a family and everything else. It's just once we get to like 100 people, well, now you need a full-time leader, you need a full-time secretary, you need to find a building. So it's like, okay, if this costs $100,000 and a church of 20 is free, why not do

38:46 five free churches? That's the way the Chinese think. Okay, you know, this is free. You know, it's just that's just the way i go man and this can multiply it can mobilize but what you have to do is you have to pray to the lord of harvest and say we need more workers then we need more disciple makers this is working this can happen but lord you have to constantly bring us more leaders under the old system all i needed was myself i don't mean that in an arrogant way i'm just saying that's how crazy that system is, is as long as I got in the pulpit and preached a message that would draw a crowd, we're good. And so all I have to do is make sure I don't commit adultery, I keep walking with the Lord, and I preach biblically, I can fill a room. Like, is that really the way it was supposed to work? But I liked it because I'm that type of person that doesn't like to depend on other people. You know, I want to be able to carry it. One of my friends, Dave Gibbons, who's a pastor in this area, he was at my house one time, and he just randomly out of the blue goes, hey Francis, you play basketball? I go, yeah. He goes, when you play basketball, you don't like to pass, do you? I'm like, what kind of question is that? That's such a lame question. I go, why would you even say that? He goes, just answer the question. I go, no, I don't like to pass. I like to shoot. He goes, I knew it. I go, how can you know? You never, but I can just tell, you know, my personality is just let me do it. I'll just take care of it. I'll work it all out. I don't want to depend on anyone. I don't want to have to pass the ball. And so I kind of built church that way.

40:43 And now it's like, no, that's not what God asked for. It was a body, and everyone's got gifts. And I have to depend on other people. Depend on other people, even lead my kids. And it's been awesome, though. So, I left like seven minutes for questions. Then I got to head to the airport. Sorry, I talked too long. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. That's good. She's asking like how, you know, like new believers starting a church, how do you know that they're not going to go off on some tangent or whatever? A couple of things. First of all, everyone in our church, we encourage them to read through the Bible in a year.

41:36 so we're all on the same reading plan, which is huge, because the greatest safeguard against heresy is when all the people are reading the scripture. The worst thing you can have is one guy being the spiritual authority that everyone listens to, because once he goes off, or once sin enters his life, or once his theology gets a little crazy, so goes a thousand people. But when everyone's reading the word, they're all listening, you know, and in these smaller gatherings, it's not so much about, you know, one guy preaching to everyone, but the leaders, the pastors there whom we disciple and the elders train them up. So it's not just anyone starting a small group, you know, so you've got that training kind of like you have here. It's like this ongoing training for one. Number two is everyone's reading the word of God. And then number three is we have some blessings nowadays with the internet, where as the elders of the larger movement, we can just put some doctrinal statements that again, everyone, lay person, brand new believer reads and uses their own mind and goes, hey, wait a second, our leader's kind of getting screwy here and they can just tell us, we'll kick them out.

42:55 Yeah. I'll tell you about the small group. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. You know, what do we do? Do we ever gather together? So they just all meet in their own homes. But once a month, we gather all together. Like this Sunday, we gathered at a park. And so, again, we don't spend a dime. You know, here I am at the park. And, you know, we had like, you know, a little over 100 people over there. Because it's just fun to see the old crowd again. And, you know, you've split off into these four churches. and then when you gather back, it's like, gosh, I love you. It's just like family reunion. But it's also a joy because you know what they've been doing the other three weeks. Like, you guys are doing it. You guys are doing it. And so there is a gathering. It's kind of like a dessert for us. We don't depend on it, but it's nice.

43:49 And if the day comes when we can't have these giant gatherings and they limit what we can say in those types of public arenas, We're good. We don't need it. See, that's my concern is, man, when things get difficult in the future and certain things we say are labeled hate crime, if you say it in a public arena like that, then what do we do? And even today, certain things, if you have a belief system that Jesus really is the only way to heaven and to say that, no, I don't believe Muhammad will get you there or if you say that you believe that homosexuality and practice of that, homosexual sex is a sin, then can you say that from a public setting and how long will you be able to say things like that? And then let's face it with the dangers of radical Islam and all it's going to take is one guy who decides I'm going to walk into a church this Sunday and this will be my act of worship to Allah to blow everyone up.

44:56 What is that going to do to every other church in America and these large public gatherings? We have to start thinking like that wouldn't take very much to overthrow this whole system. But if we start training all of our people to where I don't care if I'm the only believer in this city, I know what to do. That's what happened in China. See, in Russia, when communism came in, they just took out a few of the leaders and the whole thing died because it was built very much like the American system. But in China, because of some of the discipleship that had taken place when communism came, they couldn't kill Christianity. They had leaders that knew how to make disciples and it flourished to over 100 million believers under communism. Why? Because of what we're talking about here. People were trained.

45:48 They weren't dependent on these five speakers to do everything for them. So, yeah. Oh, tithe. Yeah, this will be the last question, and I've got to catch a flight. But tithing is what we do. Yeah, people give, and each individual church, like right now we have someone who volunteers as a part-time accounting person that just tracks the giving from all four churches into one account. It doesn't take that much time, if you know what you're doing. And so each of those churches independently decide where that money goes. But it's always, you know, if it's under $500, we say, man, just make a decision as the pastors of that church and as a church to where it goes. If it's a larger gift, then it runs by the elders just to us just to make sure nothing weird's going on.

46:46 And so, and then sometimes we can all gather together and the elders can say, hey, guys, there's this need for a well in Africa and this one region and a missionary and it'll cost about five grand. Can we just, we're going to use some of the collective resources and give to that. So everything that comes in goes out, but each church has its say in where it goes. So the leaders start feeling the burden of those leaders. Hey, look for things globally. There's needs out there. And it just gives people ownership. Like, you know, if you're the leader of the church and you hear of something in Cambodia, isn't it awesome to think, I can tell my 10 people we can do something there.

47:26 It's just so much more exciting to people to realize I can be a part of this. So man, this was really, I wish I had another hour with you guys. But yeah, thank you so much.