The Breakdown: "It's Not Right, But It's Okay"

30:50 It's not right. It's not right, but it's okay from Acts chapter 16. Dr. Ayers, a great word that I think was a blessing to so many. Talk to us maybe about some pieces from the cutting room floor. Okay. Thank you so much for that. As you were reading, I was like, oh, is that in there? Oh, really? it was all the blur right i was trying to i got you recover from being sick all week you recover well you recover well god is good um so i think one of the things uh because i normally we do the good old baptist thing like three points um but i was stuck on those two and because it was so much for me in each point and so one of the things i think in acts 16 and 17 where she identifies paul right as companions and servants of the most high right she is saying you are here to preach salvation to all of us. And so the all of us, for me, I see that in all caps, bold and underlined. Okay. Right. So she sees herself as one who salvation is for. And she's because she's going around constantly proclaiming this as opposed to making money for those who own her. So she went on the streets following them every day. So something about that she was trying to, I feel, have my interpretation is that she was using her agency that she did have to go loose in the streets to make money for them. She said, I'm going to use this agency over these next days. I'm going to Follow them, right, with the hopes that I, too, can be a part of that.

32:12 And so I think for me it was she recognized their mission, but did they recognize their mission to her? Okay. Because I think what you find there is I didn't really talk about it in depth, but I also was trying to show that there was class and gender. Okay. In the way in which Paul responded, right, because he certainly offered Lydia's entire household baptism and salvation. And I just wonder, was it because she was a wealthy entrepreneur? Right? I don't know that, but it's something about it why he treated this woman totally different than he did Lydia. And he passed it every day because back and forth, they're going back and forth, and she followed them out in the streets. So I think that's one thing I wanted to talk a little bit more about because I think it asks the question, what does salvation that they proclaim, that they're proclaiming in the streets every day, mean to the woman that's announcing it? So she's saying it, but it's like, they're like, we ain't thinking about her.

33:06 She, you know, whatever they feel about her. And finally, it's his annoyance. Not that she's lying, not that she's doing something wrong, but he's just frustrated and irritated. She keeps coming after him every single day, saying the same thing, but she's not telling a lie on you. So I'm just wondering, did Paul recognize his mission to this enslaved girl who, for the most part, was nameless, was faithless? So it was easy for him to just dismiss her as opposed to Lydia who had some standing in community. Yeah. Right. And so that's a little bit more I want to talk about. And this idea of exploring salvation is something with consequences. Right. For people's actual lives. Okay. Whether that's safety, belonging, freedom from exploitation. For her, that's what it would have been. Right. Had she joined that movement, been able to be brought into the fold like Lydia was. and the ability to make decisions about her own future if she were to be then saved and be set free from because we talk about salvation.

34:03 It's not just the conversion and instruction, like be converted, live right, yes, but it's also being saved from systems of exploitation. So that could mean something for her freedom and her real liberation because I would argue she didn't get that in the text, right? So that's one thing I didn't get a chance to kind of deal more into And then this idea of understanding in our lives when being useful is different than being valued. Oh, my God. Right? So sometimes if we're very useful to people, we think we're valued. And that's not always the case. Because she was very useful to the owners. But clearly she had no value to the owners. And quite frankly, none to Paul. He didn't see her full humanity and her full value that she could offer if he were to just stop for a moment and have conversation with her. You know, kind of like Jesus' model, right? Like the woman at the well, how he took the time to engage in conversation and dialogue back and forth. And not this idea of people preached about throwing the well being this person trying to seduce Jesus or she was a prostitute at the well.

35:04 How do we recover even her story in that moment and see the ways in which Jesus would have stopped, took a moment to talk and understand the person and then offer salvation to her. So that was another part, this idea of being useful. Don't get being useful to people, being confused with that they value you and being able to see that difference. And I think, yeah, I think that's just a contradiction that we have to think about because we can celebrate the talent and control your opportunities at the same time. Right? And so I think, and we see this every day, right, how people can depend on labor and disregard the needs. We think about exploitive labor, child labor. Right. Right? Very useful to the people, but no value. And then what is our role in not perhaps supporting companies? We try to do the best we can, but at this point, you know, capitalism is so global, it's hard. We would be naked, right, if we were to stop supporting.

35:58 Or making our own clothes. Making our own clothes, right, making our own clothes. We have to go all the way back to how Grandma used to get that pattern out. That's right, that's right. And cut it out and sew. But, yeah, so I'm saying that. But that is something we have to think about and consider, and that's the work we have to do to press back against those systems. It's just the work that I feel the work I'll do is all Christians, not just Dr. Haynes or certain people who have a lean toward justice. but Micah says that you need to do justice. He didn't make it collective in that moment so that nobody was confused. Nobody's left out. The Lord requires you to do justice. So I think that's another part that I would have delved more into.

36:33 And probably this idea of this annoyance. That part really sticks with me too. Sure, you're bothered by Paul's annoyance with this already. Help us with that. And so, because I think in a way it can reveal our limits of being compassionate. I think that's what it can do. We get annoyed about that. It's this idea. We're always saying we've got to do self-examination. That's all of us. That's something we have to think about why he chose to respond in that way. Because he was annoyed, he responded really in a self-centered way and caused more harm than good to the young girl by calling that spirit out of her and moving on. Interesting. He moved on to prison. Then he got out of prison. And so we're more concerned, and we should, right? We're praising Paul and Cyrus saying the chains fell off and everybody was liberated in the prison. But nobody goes back and asks what's the young girl liberated.

37:30 So how do we kind of put some kind of hierarchy on whose liberation is most valuable or who deserves it? Yeah. Right? Which kind of goes back to when we talk about policies and laws, which is all about deserving and entitles. Somebody is saying this group of these people either deserve the resource or they don't. And oftentimes that's about who values people. Right. Are you disposable? Right. You know, put all the stuff down in South Dallas so we can be choking on air. Right. And have contaminated water. And who is doing the valuing? Correct. Right. Which I think is a major part of it. And those in power. Right. Like her owners decided she was not valuable. And I think that's one of the things I didn't get into what I was saying. is this idea of we have to be careful not to have power over people, but have power with people. And so what we see in the text is more about we having power over people. In a way, in a small way, I think as Paul handled her, he did the same thing because he had the power, right, to then minister to her.

38:29 The same way he took time to minister to the jailer, who was a Roman citizen, right, and a man of power, and to Lydia. But for her, it's just like, I'm tired of you. You've been following us. so finally just my voice was like get away from me right that's essentially um how that was so yeah i think those are some of the things that i didn't get a chance to do a rich text and a rich perspective on the text i want to say that publicly like i really appreciate it you're the way that you uh wrestle with the text and again like i said it's familiar so it's hard oftentimes to preach something familiar and to like see something new right where you know when other people have seen it before and preached it before and hollered and you know done all kind of stuff over you know at midnight paul and south right they that but you you gave us some fresh insight and i want to try to to to to deal with it with the the time that we that we have and i want to ask this question that based on what you were just talking about that paul annoyed probably did more harm than good by just kind of like casting the spirit out and moving on.

39:40 And there are some people who would say that her spiritual liberation is the liberation that mattered though, right? The fact that she was delivered from this spirit of divination. What's your response to that, right? That the spiritual liberation is what mattered. And then maybe these other, But, yeah, I won't contextualize it beyond that. Just talk to us about what you would say to somebody who says, well, only the spiritual liberation is what is important. Right. And so I think we miss that God loves us wholly and completely. And so to be spiritually liberated but be still bound by a real reality is not liberating. So it's partial liberation. Right? It's partial freedom. So that's what I would say, that we can't stop there. Because you see still living a daily life.

40:35 So it doesn't, what good is to be spiritually liberated if I'm still bound either by physical change or I'm bound by being beholden to someone else. That salvation is not just, again, the personal conversion and instruction. It is also being freed up from whatever prevents you from living that abundant life. So that's, I mean, that's really what I would say about that, right? And to do that is to over-spiritualize what happened. Yes. Right? because you're not dealing with, I did say this on Sunday, you're not dealing with the fact she's spiritually liberated, but she still belongs to the enslavers. Correct. And so now what's happening is she has to go back to that same system and say, well, now I don't even have the gifts, so now I can't make money for you. She didn't even have the gifts anymore. So now what's going to happen, do they sell her to someone else? My God. Do they abuse her? I mean, we don't know what could happen to her. So if you're going to spiritually liberate her, you should have liberated her also from the physical bondage that she's in.

41:30 and not just her spirit. So we need a holistic understanding. Correct, of salvation. Of salvation, of liberation, right? We need to be holistic. Yeah, and I think it's not just about her either because if you remember in Acts, so when the chains fell off, see, Paul and Cyrus weren't the only ones liberated. They said everybody. Everybody got free. The chains fell off of everybody. But what about all the other people who were enslaved? She probably was not the only young girl that's enslaved. So are we now saying certain people deserve it and some people don't? So that's what I would say about it. She was spiritually liberated. That's good enough where it's not good enough. Yeah. Right? It has to be both ends. Such a rich word. I want to, if you're watching online, hit that like button. Hit that share button. I think, you know, this is, again, a rich word. I want to take us to the text and start at verse 17. She followed Paul and the rest of us shouting, These men are servants of the Most High God who are telling you the way to be saved.

42:30 She kept this up for many days. And finally, Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the Spirit, in the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to come out of her. And at that moment, the Spirit left her. One of the things that I hear you saying is that justice has to be interpersonal. Justice has to be communal. But what does Paul's annoyance at this young girl, what is Paul's response say to us about God's ability to accomplish liberation, freedom, salvation, even through imperfect people? Through the through the imperfect. Right. Talk to us about. Right. Right, I'm glad you asked that question because I think that one of the things I talked about is that that's why it's important to see the full humanity because we all have limitations. Okay, yeah.

43:25 Right, so I want to say that, but I also don't want to, and this question is good because I don't want to romanticize Paul's actions. Right, he spiritually liberated her and that's good. Yeah. Because we can accidentally do that. So I think that, you know, the text tells the girl followed Paul and his, you know, Silas for several days, declaring the truth that they're servants of the Most High God. Paul calls himself the servant of the Most High God, right, who proclaims his salvation. So the fact that she was speaking the truth, I'm always wondering what was, why was he so annoyed at the truth? Yeah, this is, yeah, this is good. Yeah. It's what I would always ask. The same way with Peter back in Matthew, right, when he was denying Jesus. Like, what that woman talking, I don't know nothing about what she's talking about. So, man, he started swearing, right? Paul just gave a speech act and then really paralyzed the woman in a sense, right? So I think that distinction matters in many ways because we can acknowledge something spiritually significant happened or occurred without automatically concluding, right, that Paul was acting out of contentment for a full liberation. I mean, it's just because we're layered people, right?

44:34 So everything doesn't happen like in black and white. But I think that what it tells us that we have to pause sometimes, even when we're aggravated, irritated, frustrated, sometimes we act out of that. And I just think that's what happened with Paul. And I still wonder what made him so annoyed after several days, as opposed to maybe by day three, sister, why are you following us? It's something you need for us. Let's have a conversation. As an alternative. As an alternative to that. So we don't know that. I'd be interested to know that. Right. On why he did that. But I think understanding that doing something good for a person doesn't necessarily mean that we've done everything that justice requires of us. So he did something good, but did he see her full humanity? Okay. Right. Okay. And then what's his relationship to the system and institutions that had her bound? I don't know. We don't know the Texans.

45:25 They have Paul had anything to do with that and if he understood what was happening. Because he did not. This is what I say. So yeah, they got thrown in jail because they disrupted the owners from bad because of that. But they're not thrown in jail for the sake of the gospel. That's not why they were there. So they weren't thrown in jail for the sake of the gospel. Well, no, because they got thrown in jail. Because if you read, if we follow the narrative, they're calling the magistrates. Now they used that they were calling them. They were saying, oh, you're calling us to do things that are not custom. They used that, but that's not what it says. It doesn't say they were going around preaching and they were saying that Caesar is not God, there's this other God. Like how Jesus was very direct in that. They were going back and forth to the house of prayer. The girl was following them. They called the spirit out. The slave owners didn't make money. So then they took it to the people and got the mob involved.

46:19 So I think they ended up in jail because of that. Not that they were going around preaching this gospel that upset the people. Okay. So that's my interpretation of that, right? I appreciate it. So that's how they landed in jail because the folks are like, wait a minute, they done messed up our little flow here. Now, of course, they used their, they didn't say it was economics, right? They went into, oh, they're preaching stuff. There are customs that we're not supposed to be doing as Roman citizens. It's the way, you know, how people layer stuff. Yeah, this is good. You know, to say it's one thing, but I'm going to layer with something else to get you all riled up, right? So you can practice this new way of religion that you're doing, but don't dare say that it's going to replace the current system. That there's another kingdom outwardly in the streets. They were going back and forth to the house of prayer. And not preaching. That's not why they were in jail or put in prison. It doesn't say they were in the streets doing this, and therefore the people were upset.

47:14 They were upset. They upset the capitalist system. They upset the money flow. Right. It shows how economic power can lead to public and political power. right so they took and said hey they over here preaching this thing we're not supposed to be doing they're telling us do things against our custom sure so everybody's riled up everybody flogging and beating on paul and silas right let me ask this question was that part true what's the part true ask were they really teaching or preaching customs that were unlawful for the romans to embrace is that part true well i don't know it doesn't say what they were preaching okay They could have been preachers, yes. I guess this is what I'm thinking, you know, or this is what you're making me think about. And that is this idea of the young girl who is speaking the truth. In the same way that these Roman officials could be speaking, could be, not saying that they are, right, could be, but in a way that's designed to, like, get Paul and Silas caught up. Right, right.

48:11 is there a way that the young girl's truth not because of um the truth that she's speaking and i want to blame it on the spirit of divination i could be wrong there right that this is true but you know how like you can say things that are true but in a way like you just said right but then in a way like that they're designed to be provocative in a way that are designed to like row people or or make a mockery like yeah what what happens to our interpretation if we like assume that i'm just i want to just throw that out there maybe it's just a kind of thought experiment even though i'm normally on the you know throw paul under the bus train right i'm normally there right there with you you know paul he's he's worthy of of us really thinking differently about stuff i also want to ask so we can kind of sum this like first part of the text up what would you say are the just talk to us about the all of the intersecting like powers that are oppressing this young lady you mentioned some of them earlier you talked about gender you talked about class but just talk about all the intersecting forms of bondage that are operating in her life all the operating all of the uh forms of bondage that are not right yeah Right. That are not right. Yeah. So I think it's one is class. Right. She's clearly doesn't have means. Doesn't have money. Right. She's enslaved.

49:37 Which means now she's part of a class as they're she's in a slave society. So just like we were enslaved in America, we were the lowest of the low in terms of societal hierarchy. And we were not seen as fully human. Right. So that's another layer she has. So then. So it's class. It's gender. It's social standing. as the old folks say her station in life and then nobody autonomy right her body belongs to someone else because she's in bondage right so she has all these intersects of economics then you have social so it's probably economical social I would even say to a degree psychological right that you are not worthy you belong to us and you will go out here and make this money for us and I'm sure she doesn't see the money right right the money goes to them to enrich themselves so I think it's all of these intersections that she is dealing with and managing day to day. Yeah.

50:29 That she probably, and I hear what you're, so that's the way that Texas typically preached. Sure. Is that she was somehow going out there, they saying that it's true, but it was coming from a, yeah, is it a mocking or, yeah. Right, or an evil place. And I think we have to be cautious though to label it as evil, right? the same way in which they try to label a lot of things our ancestors practiced as evil. A lot of what we still do today, it just looks different, and we call it different names, but it's still pretty African, right? It's something that has come down, and through synchronization, of course, it has gone through some transformation. It looks a little different, but it stays the same. So I think that's possible. That's how it's usually preached, right? But I think my womanist theological sense is how do we see this from her point of view? Her perspective, yeah. And if our theme for the month is God remembers the oppressed, she's still oppressed. I appreciate that.

51:26 I appreciate that helping us to think about it that way. Talk to us about these men who are profiting from this young girl. What does their, what does how they do business, what does how they deal, how does their dealing with her, give us some insight into our own present moment where profit seems to matter more oftentimes than people or money or money interests seem to matter more than people? Yes, I think what we're dealing with the folks is going to be this kind of what you're hinting at. And even today is this intersection of race, religion, right? and how public fear is used to disguise economic interests.

52:25 Even if we look at all the, in Europe right now, that's spreading, particularly in France, right? So what is the narrative across the globe is immigrants, is others who are causing all this because that then disguises that it's billionaires causing the inflation, overcrowding of the schools, not having equitable pay. And so this, to me, what you're asking me is how do we really examine how oppressive power operates? That's how I interpret what you're asking me. And so the enslavers, then those owners, don't go before the magistrates and say these men have interfered with the ability to exploit the young girl. That's not what they say. Right? They could have said that because that's their problem. But instead, they accused Paul and Silas of disturbing the city and promoting, again, like I said, customs that are not acceptable or permissible for the Romans. So the shift in a conversation from economic exploitation, which is what it is, to public disorder and cultural differences.

53:22 Because now he's there even other than Paul and Silas. They're not us. They're out here doing X, Y, and Z. And so I think, yes, I think it's weaponizing ethnicity, religious differences to protect their financial interests. That's what they did. They could have just said, you know, because of what they did, I'm losing my money. But the question is, why wouldn't they say that? Why did they feel the need to then otherize, right, hollering sides? And so that's how I understand that. And it kind of goes back to even our own journey, our old story journey through this nation. Even, you know, we think about how we demanded equal rights. They frequently described us as, you know, we don't deserve those rights. It's always something, but it's about economic interest, just like enslavement, right? We don't deserve to be free because we don't know how, we're savages, right? We don't know how to do, we don't know how to be communal.

54:19 We don't know how to be civilized when the reality is, no, you're protecting your money and your economic interest. And so every term, when I talk about the red light, the red light is to stop our progress because in their minds, it's impacting their economic interests. And so I think that's what we kind of have to think about. This loss of income creates a – they create controversy and then other – and place things on other groups who otherwise have been – who may not be at the top rung of society to say you're the problem and you have to be dealt with. Because if you don't, it's going to disrupt our way of life. It's what we're going through right now. Right? Blaming others, whether it's black folks, immigrants, Muslims, it's always somebody else causing the problem to preserve a way of life and to hold on to power. So is racism, we're using Act 16. I'm using Act 16 to ask this question. Is racism good for business?

55:19 Racism is excellent for business depending on which side you're on. Okay. Yeah. That's kind of what I hear you kind of talking about. We might even say any. Let me ask another way. Are all forms of oppression good for business? Give me a part B. Okay, let's think about gender violence in particular. Is that good? Oh, right, yes. Going back to this question about these intersecting forms of oppression, class, religion, race, right? Are all of these forms of oppression just good for business? It's good for somebody's business. It's good for somebody's business. Because you're only oppressing someone because you're trying to push them down to elevate yourself to be the one that's receiving something that you don't want someone else to have. It's better for me to have you in an oppressive state because now I have power over you and I can control not only your movements, but I can control your way of life. In many cases, whether you live or die, depending on the level of oppression.

56:17 So, yeah, I think it depends on who's doing it. You think about human trafficking, for example. That's good for somebody's business. Do you know that human traffic is taken over arms dealing? It's the highest grossing money that comes in over arms. The arms dealing used to always be at the top globally. Wow. Now it's human trafficking, that the trafficking of human bodies brings in that much money. More profit than guns. Than guns. Yeah. Yeah. In a violent world, it's always war everywhere. Right. So think about that. So yeah, I think all forms of pressure is good for somebody's business. Yeah. And again, I don't want people to assume that this is not rooted in this kind of analysis of the text. I think that what you helped us to see on Sunday, what you're helping us to think about now is, again, these intersecting forms of oppression. the ways in which Paul and Silas in what we regard as an effort to liberate this woman spiritually wind up actually leaving her bound and in perhaps a worse predicament because she's still subject to the men who are exploiting her and I do think that there's some some rich uh some rich uh text for us to mind to talk about these otherwise unaddressed issues in the church like human trafficking, like, you know, gun smuggling, these other forms of oppression that really need the church's voice, that really need us to be able to name them and identify them and call them out.

57:52 Talk to us a little bit. Let's talk about the fact that, let's read it, actually. Let's go to verses 22 through 24 of 16. It says, justice with me i got reverend dr danielle ayers here so i know i can ask this question what does the text teach us about state violence um and i don't that's not again another thing that we don't think about that we don't talk about that the church's voice is not perhaps as loud as it should be on in light of january 6th in light of uh of the outbreak of and the rash of violence that is accompanying or that many fear perhaps will accompany this midterm election if it doesn't go the way that a certain party and a certain president wanted to go so the crowd jumps in and they engage in this violence against paul and silas for disrupting the money talk to us about what you think this text can teach us and help us as the church to do as it relates to addressing naming talking about state violence yeah i'm glad you said that because it's not only if it doesn't go a certain way.

59:31 I think if it goes the way others would want it to go, where we feel we would get back on track, we still need to be prepared for a level of resistance. Right. Either way. So I think when it comes to this mob violence, state-sanctioned violence, I think we begin as a financial grievance. I don't want to miss the money, the ways in which money and economy lends itself to be able to have the power to then translate into political power, then translates into having the state to be engaged in violence, right? You can't disconnect the two. So I think they join, the crowd joins in, right? And they start beating and imprisoning them. And I think it's important lesson about the relationship between private economic interests. We talk about today, right? Billionaires, we talk about private companies, how even, let's just make it, and I'm going to answer your question, but you're making me think about how you have corporations buying up blocks and blocks of real estate, which makes housing unaffordable.

1:00:34 People can't purchase homes. So how private economic interest gets in bed with state institutions, that we have to be very careful and mindful of that. And so the enslavers couldn't restore their lost profits by simply saying, being mad about it. So I think what they did, but what they could do is appeal to the government. And I think that's what they did. They said, look, right, then it turned into the magistrates. And so the authorities, they mobilize public fear. They turn the private grievance into state punishment by pulling people into a narrative. It's almost like you look at Ida B. Wells if you read all of her documentation of lynchings in America. When she talks about mob rule, that it was a narrative that you got to get the black folks under control because they're out here raping white women. And the black women, like all these narratives about us, the narrative power is what we call it in movement circles, right? And the power of that to then turn to have state-sanctioned violence.

1:01:32 And that's why she wrote, and it goes back to the economy, because what she concluded when she did all the research with Lynch, this has nothing to do with black men being hypersexual. This has nothing to do with white women's purity not being protected. It was about the economic interest. that black folks were starting to gain money, build whole towns, institutions to be self-sufficient, right? So I think that's what we have to think about, how quickly economic power can become political power that leads to state-sanctioned violence. And so I think that's what we see in the text. Like, it was a private – it's private economic issue. You got this little game going where you have this girl out here making money for you, and then that money is gone. Yeah. So that's the real issue. but let me get everybody riled up. There'd be some outsiders who are coming in, disrupting things. So it's going to mess all, now, because I'm going to get you involved, because now you've got to look at what you're going to lose because they're here. And that's the play, right?

1:02:25 And this happened in Acts. It's happening today. And I think we're called to understand what it means to do the justice work so that we can see those intersections and not be fooled by it and not buy into a lot of the negative things, even now that's out there about different groups of people. Right. Yeah. Right? So whether that's Muslims, whether that's the Haitians, whether that's the Latino, Latinx, Latinx. Progressive Christians. That's the biggest part right now. And that's going to be the next real battle. It's going to be if you don't believe a certain brand of Christianity, you are evil. You the devil. You ain't preaching the real gospel. And that's the danger of certain elevation of certain preachers in certain churches that are really anti-black MAGA pastors and black faiths, right? That kind of carries that message. And in Texas, we have to be especially mindful.

1:03:19 As we say, you know, you have the Bible Belt. And I always say, and it's true, that Texas is the buckle. Of the Bible Belt. Yeah. I mean, there's no accident that AT&T Stadium was full of people, right? I'll just say that because that had to happen because there's some other folk, non-Malane people said, I need you to go here, pack it out, preach this version of the gospel, right? To influence how people think, which goes back to the economic interest of a certain group of people. Wow. Okay. So almost like the young girl in the text, maybe even, right? Exploited in a similar way, right? Not exactly, but in a similar way. Okay. I got it. We're hastening to an end. I want to try to get one more of the questions that I have. Pastor Garner is like over there just like so excited to ask this question. He wants to know how do we distinguish Paul's actions from the actions of Jesus in the gospel as it relates to how both dealt with the demonic, with the presence of the demonic.

1:04:25 He says, every example that we see plainly in scripture as it relates to Jesus and conversions with demons or evil spirits, the demon recognizes Jesus' identity. The demon anticipates Jesus' authority to destroy evil. Jesus then rebukes the spirit and commands it to come out. This is no different than Paul's actions in Acts 16, or is it not? Any response to that? Perhaps. Right? Where does the scripture, where does it say in Acts 16 that it was a demonic spirit? and maybe the assumption is that because it's the spirit of divination right or the right this yeah the spirit of divination we can say that and then there are other there are religions who have divination as a part of their religious beliefs and that's why i'm saying we have to be mindful not to just automatically summarily call something demonic because it is what you have believed perhaps all your life right but i don't see where because Jesus clearly identified the demonic when we look at him doing exorcisms.

1:05:26 That's the naming of it. Okay. From my understanding, my reading. Yeah. It's named. That is not named. But we are. Okay. We could be in. Yeah. So it depends. So it depends. So what would we, what should we make then? And I appreciate that framing. So going back to verse 16. And sometimes, right, when we're in the text, it's also metaphorical. sometimes we talk about it's not an actual person, but it's dealing with talking about a system and how Jesus is calling out the evil. So I think it depends on what past scriptures we're reading and not have a blanket kind of, you know, statement around that this is telling us about a real person that was not labeled demonic in the text. Yes. Some people are going to interpret it that way, but it's room for conversation around that. Sure. Yeah. I want to just quickly just, so how would we frame going back to verse 16? Once we were going to the place of prayer, who were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future.

1:06:25 She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune telling. How might we interpret that? What's a responsible way, let me ask it that way, for us to interpret Acts 16, 16? So I think it depends on who you read and whose interpretation you read. So when you look at some scholars, particularly women and scholars, right, the text is translated as in fortune telling where others say she was a truth teller. Okay. Right. So we have people, I mean, do we believe that people still speak prophetically today? Personally? Personally? Yes, absolutely. I'm super spooky Pentecostal. So I believe that you can, that you definitely, that God has graced people with the gift to be able to do that. Correct, because if she wasn't telling the truth, if she had a spirit, she's bringing in money because she knows how to go around giving people, to tell the truth about people or give them a truth-telling piece, right? To say who they are, what they are, what's going to happen, whether you call it fortune-telling.

1:07:30 And I think the fortune-telling makes it sound more kind of makes you… It's very Ms. Cleo. Yes. You know, it kind of makes us think about those. And that's why I think interpretation and how we read text more deeply matters. Okay. Because we're already reading it through a 21st, 22nd century lens anyway. Correct. Where the text has been translated, right, from Aramaic to Greek, now to English. So we're already dealing with multiple translations. Because we have fortune telling. That's what I think about. Yeah. You know, Ms. Cleo used to make some money back in the day. She would make a lot of money. She would call that hotline. So, you know, we think fortune telling. but Missy Smith says she was a truth teller. And so that's why I'm saying we have to be mindful of what we demonize even in our sacred texts and what we've probably been taught to think about Acts 16 because it's been preached so much that she was this.

1:08:23 And I think our job is to recover people and to restore them back into community and restore their story. Because if we're excited about the liberation of the people in jail, why aren't we just concerned about her liberation? If we believe that God created all of us and we all have that divine spark in us, other than that, then we are, what are we saying? That everybody doesn't matter. I appreciate that. I appreciate helping us to kind of, you know, to highlight this idea of reclamation and was this liberative, spiritually liberative act on Paul's part, did it do more harm than good, which I think is a really important point for us to think about as we again are in the month of August. For us, our focus is on justice as God's call to remember the oppressed. And to the earlier point that you made, how do we make sure that liberation is holistic, right?

1:09:17 That as we're liberating people spiritually, that we're also doing an extended work of liberating them in all of the ways that they are oppressed. As we, I think we're past the eight o'clock hour here and I wanna try to be a good steward of the time. Can we give God praise for Pastor Ayers who's blessing us, who blessed us on Sunday with a powerful word, blessing us with a powerful teaching. If you're online still, hit that like button. We got a few more minutes. You should probably still share this word, this message, this teaching tonight from Acts chapter 16. As we come to a close, hasten to a close on the sermon title, It's Not Right, But It's Okay by Reverend Dr. Daniel Ayers. uh doc that that title it's not right but it's okay that was the that was the title of the message how do we affirm that injustice is not right while trusting that injustice will not have the final word and to say it another way or to add on to that how do we prevent the it's okay from becoming a kind of passive acceptance of oppression.

1:10:32 Oh, yeah, thank you for that. I tried to lean into this too, right, but I had to move on. And so it's not right, but I said names the injustice. Saying but it's okay, it's our pronouncement that we're going to resist and have a response. So it can't be passive if you're resisting and responding, right? So I think when we think about if something happens to you, Because we never want to do that because that can easily sanction, you know, dehumanizing somebody, oppressing somebody, mistreating. Like that can easily kind of roll into that and you'll take it because you're thinking, hey, this must be God's will for my... I'm very mindful about kind of promoting suffering as a... Okay, yeah, redemptive. Redemptive suffering, right? That's something that you will know the Bible study around that. But I'm very careful about that. But that's why I'm saying how you prevent it from becoming passive or just saying this the way it is. Because I'm saying the Buddha's okay, then you have something to do.

1:11:27 Right? And I think that's when I try to kind of use that whole the red light, green light saying these are the ways that we have been red lighted. We didn't just sit there and pray about it. We prayed about it to get direction from God on what we do next. And I think that's how we're able then to green light ourselves and to do for ourselves with a response. We resisted it. And then we had a real response that was action oriented. So I think that's how we prevent it is to make sure you know you're going to resist whatever it is and have a response to it, whether that's individual or collective. Because sometimes in our own lives, something can be done to us and we have to decide, okay, I'm going to resist what just happened to me. I'm not going to own that. It happened. And you have to deal with it, right? You do have to deal with your emotions and feelings and work through it. But then you've got to have a response to it so you don't stay there. And more importantly, that you don't own it when something is done to you. Yeah. So that's how you can prevent that is having that kind of mindset. And that's what Whitney said, right?

1:12:22 She said, but that's okay. I'm going to make it anyway. And if you keep hearing the song, she's like, you can get out. Pack your bags and go. I'm going to be all right, right? So I think it's that we just have to understand it in that context so we don't just sit back and say, well, it happened. I mean, you read your Bible. Wherever God made a way for the children of Israel, wherever Jesus performed a miracle, somebody had to do something. The woman issued the blood had to get through the crowd and touch the hymn. right the children of Israel he had instructions when you get to the wilderness right to take the promised land they had clear instructions on what God asked them to do so it's always this idea that we have work to do we have a part to play in our own liberation yeah talk to us about as we as we hate to close let me ask one more question what do you what for you uh is the or one of the or maybe two or three of the uh of the great challenges, the great opportunities, uh, in front of the church, what unjust system is the church called to address, uh, redirect, deliver, deliver folks from, uh, what, what, what, what are those, what are those issues? And then what does faith, what would faithful action, require of us from your perspective in this moment?

1:13:44 Externally? When you say injustices. You're the pastor of justice. However you want to address it. It could be internal. It could be in the church. It could be external to the church. What are those issues? What unjust system is the church called to confront today? I think if we were to... I'll just skip to, so I gave three levels of what it means to do justice, but there's another level in between the interpersonal, and I call it, before you get to systems and institutions, is how are we in relationship to the church? Big C church, right? Universal church. And I think one of the things we have to begin to deal with is going to be this, what's continuing to become more of a gap and a rise between the white nationalist Christianity, right, and the Christianity that's rooted in love. and that I think we have to be willing to tell the truth and be more vocal about that brand of Christianity because I don't know if we have as large of an echo chamber as the white Christian nationalists.

1:14:46 And so where do we stop being kind of, now we're not at French and West obviously, but how do more churches get off of the sidelines and not be afraid to tell the truth, right? To be a truth teller and not worry about the consequences. It's like what I talked about Sunday, right? You have to speak out, even if it's an act of resistance that may cause you to get uninvited some places and put out some places. I mean, King got put out of some places, many places. Many places. Right. So I think that's one thing we have to continue with. Are we ready to really go to like using violent language? Are we really go to war? Because this is a spiritual warfare that we're in in terms of what what what Christianity are we lifting up and are we believing in? I think that's one thing the church has to, that's an injustice to me, a form of injustice because it's not right. That you're preaching something that's really rooted in saying it's a brand of Christian that still says I'm on top and you're on the bottom. That's why I don't see color.

1:15:43 When they tell you don't see color, that's going to be easy for them to make sure that you're invisible eyes. They can do, because I don't see your color, so I can't see you fully. So I think that's one thing. And then I think it's about how we internally with the Big C Church deal with how we're structured and even how we handle and manage and be good stewards over leadership. How we lead people, how we organize church for the next phase and to be able to respond to the external issues. So we first have to have a just structure on the inside before we go outside and declare that. So I think that's one thing. Then I think externally, where do we start? Right. So many issues. So many issues. But I think fundamentally when you think about access to health care, it's critical because we have to be healthy and alive and have access. It's not the access, it's affordability. Then it's going to be where are the special doctors located? Do I have to take 12 buses and a cab and an Uber to get there?

1:16:36 Because if you live south of downtown, depending on, you know, what type of doctor you have to see, you have to go far north. And for people who may depend on travel transportation, it's going to be difficult. We don't have mass transportation. This is not New York, Chicago, right? We don't have that. So I think health care for sure, because we have to be able to be healthy and have access to what we need to be healthy. So that's one. And then food insecurity. We got to have food to live. And so I think how to deal with that is not just because just look at it. The global food system is breaking down, period. It's breaking down all over. We saw it in COVID. Right. When we couldn't get access to food on the grocery shelves, although it's food up north, it just wasn't down south in the grocery stores. But I think food insecurity, like we're going to have to really learn how to go back to really growing our own food. Not only just to have it available, but we don't know what's in the food we're eating, which is making us sick. You know, so food, I think so. I think health care, food, which is all these are intersections, too.

1:17:32 It's not just by itself. I think education. We absolutely have to do something about our public education system and how our children are being educated. I'm seeing certain countries moving, going off of the screens and going back to pen's paper and books. old school because of how our children not really being fully educated and learning and they're not prepared in the world and for our children to be able to compete globally because that's where it is now we were coming up, your competition may have been somebody from another school getting a job now it's literally somebody can move well not now because Trump ain't going to let him in but for Trump literally you can be peeding with people all over the world for a job so I think education is the other piece It's health care, food insecurity, education. So I think those things allow us to have a good political first floor, like economic system, which is the first floor of having a real community that gives you political power. With the political power, then you begin to shape the public policies and the laws to where it's more life-giving, right, and not death-dealing like it is now.