DeVon Franklin

0:02 I'm so excited for people to hear this episode. I just want to say right out the gate in the introduction here, we have two pages of notes. We have a list of 10 questions. Not a single one did we get to. This podcast, this episode, you're going to hear. We start by asking one question to Devon Franklin, who's one of the most amazing humans living in Hollywood. and we just ride this wave that is so meaningful to us. Well, it was like he was in our bathroom yesterday and the conversation that you and I were having about identity and purpose and all the things. So when he answered that one question, that we just jumped on it and it was beautiful. We got into pain. We got into a culture of blessings in the church and how that can be beautiful, but also how it can be hurtful. I mean, it was just a really, for me personally, meaningful conversation.

0:55 I shared about my emotion wheel. Yeah, we talked about therapy. For those that don't know, Devon, a super highly acclaimed Hollywood producer, bestselling author, motivational speaker, known for his dynamic and inspirational insights into both the entertainment industry and spirituality. He's made a name for himself by producing blockbuster hits that merge themes of love, of faith, resilience, on and on, bestselling author. I think I already said that. Just an amazing list of accomplishments. And I think you'll hear why I just read part of his bio, because it kind of speaks to what we touch on in this episode. So honestly, prepare yourself for a

3:49 Doing great. How about y'all? So good, man. So good to see you. Last time I saw Devon Franklin, ladies and gentlemen, it occurred to me that the man, this is how it always works, the man who works out just keeps working out. They say the rich get richer, but I got news for you. The fitter get fitter. it's the truth i love it i love it man we got to get you come on what's up what are we doing where we at what i knew it took 30 seconds to get to this if devon i mean if i've got to yield and actually go to the gym with devon franklin which which might be one of the most intimidating things out yeah i don't know that i'd recommend you starting out with devon i maybe recommend we've got to shift this podcast immediately i'd recommend just starting somewhere but How often do you work out right now?

4:45 So, Devon, tell us about your faith journey in Hollywood. No, no, no, no. Uh-uh. No, no, no, no, no. Uh-uh. How often do you work out? Like I intermittent fast every day. What? No, man. I'm not even – like I hadn't even been doing my push-ups, man. The truth. Chelsea. Yeah. Come on. You just going to let your husband wilt away? Is that what's happening here? That is the reason we have come here together for this intervention. Judah thought it was a podcast, but actually it was an exercise. The annoying thing is he looks so good without working out. His muscle tone is actually incredible.

5:27 Duvon and I have discussed this before. That's really not the point. It doesn't mean you're healthy. It doesn't mean that you're getting the right testosterone. I listen. I do listen. I will say that. Well, listening, I think there's a scripture about like hearing without doing is something that we're not recommended to do. So I don't know if listening even counts. Oh man. Listen, one of these days, man, one of these days is just going to click. And then we're not going to get out of the gym. And yeah, Judah's so obsessive. Once he gets into it, he's going to, he's going to end up looking like you. I don't have a doubt. Babe, that's, that's heresy. You can't say that. Okay. I will never. No, that's not heresy. In my wildest dreams, I will never. I'm sorry, Devon. The substance in which you live your life is so expansive and extensive, and it's just borderline offensive that I bring up your fit appearance. But it is staggering.

6:23 And beyond your fit appearance, your smile just has to be one of the great smiles in Hollywood. Thank you. I really appreciate that. I want to know what you do to take care of your teeth also. I mean, what is this? I got a regiment for that. I got a whole situation for that too. Hey, I'm trying to keep, what do you call it? Trying to take care of the temple, right? That's true. You know, the temple is what it's supposed to be. Take care. Well, hey, we are so beyond grateful that you would take your time that is so valuable. You have so many plates smitting all at the same time. That you would take time to talk to us and really talk about faith and Hollywood and what your journey has been. We really think it's significant and important. But beyond that, we're just honored that you would take your time to spend here with us. Of course. Yeah. And we're proud to call ourselves friends with Devon Franklin. That's a fact. That's a fact. Likewise. Likewise. For real. Can I just start with a question?

7:15 It's not on the prepared brief or nothing like that. But what are you most excited about? What is Devon Franklin most excited about in all of life right now? You can pick anything, any aspect and dimension of your life. Wow. That's a really good question. what am I excited about? You know, I'm really just trying to find the practice. I'm, I'm, I'm, how do you say this? I'm working on the practice of not being so achievement focused. Whoa. Um, and not, uh, not being so needing certain things to happen for me to feel a certain way. So I guess I'm most excited about just being, you know, and just really finding it there versus like, well, I'm excited that this thing's happening, this thing's happening, this thing's happening. Okay, well, all those things aren't happening. Can I still find a place of excitement?

8:14 So I'm really working on just being excited about me being me, you know, and not also attaching too much to any identity, you know, like just being me, because so often it's like, we don't even get to know who we are because we are like, well, no, I'm, you know, Devon, the producer. It's like, okay, well, that's fine. But who are you? You know, who is the one that produces? Who is the one that acts? Who is the one that writes? Who is the one that identifies as a Christian? Who's that guy? So I'm just trying to get more excited about that guy and understanding that guy and, and allowing whatever comes from that to then just be, you know, icing on the cake, but it's really not the cake, so to speak. Wow. I got, you want me, it's your turn to ask questions, but I got a follow-up question. We don't like take turns. We've never done that. Well, I mean, kind of babe. That's kind of what marriage is about, but you know, whatever, take turns. But, but Devon, can you verbalize for me, um, the amount of accolades? Like if we were, if we were going bio for bio, your, your bio is, is fascinating. Your journey is extraordinary.

9:22 You are a dreamer. Everybody knows that. You're a man who inspires other people to dream big and believe in yourself. And your story is so much about that. And we can get into that. But can you tell me how you're right now sitting in your office where you facilitate an extraordinary amount of art and production? and a lot of people who are going to listen to this podcast or just in life see that as kind of like, I don't know if it's an end goal, but it's certainly like an incredible motivating force in their life. It's like someday I could have a big corner office like Devon Franklin. I could have feature film contracts. I could be, you know what I mean? Like there's so much about your existence that is the aspiration of tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions. And yet what you just said, some people would hear it as like, wait, so are you saying none of that matters? So what is the relationship, if you can describe, between like, you know, when this podcast ends, you're going to go back to doing what you do and producing and production and connection and building brands and connecting people. How is that relationship between what you just described and just detaching almost from the identity of all the success you've had while also continuing to be efficient and effective at your successful job. Does that make any sense?

10:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes it makes sense. I mean, you know, it comes down to, you know, where we place value. So, you know, for me, it's like, okay, yeah, I could certainly place value in being a producer, place value in being an author, value in being a preacher, value in being an actor, you know, value in being, you know, a TV personality, all of these things that I organically and authentically do. Yet what I've noticed, and I think this is where our culture is just missing it, even in the church, even in the world, is that we are pushing people, go get it, go after it. And that's fine, but we're selling them a bill of goods because we make people feel that, oh, once you get this blessing from God, then fill in the blank. Once you get that blessing from God, oh man, your blessing is on the way, which then means if I'm, if I'm saying something's on the way, it means I have to acknowledge the absence of it now. So then the idea of like, oh, my blessings on the way. Well, that means that, well, right now I don't feel blessed, but when that blessing comes, then I will be happy, joyful, excited content. And so for me, having experienced a lot of, you know, great success in Hollywood and, you know, made, you have made, produced major motion pictures and have had deals with so many different studios in town and, you know, all of these different things. But I can tell you as someone who bought into that, none of those things in and of themselves create joy or happiness.

12:24 They do for a moment. It's exciting. But at the end of the day, what I realize is like, yeah, I can have all of that. But if I don't get excited about me, if I don't know who I am, if I don't value the person God created, not just the things that God is bringing me, then none of this really matters. Because so often we teach this idea, if you are successful, you know, then, but we don't teach people how to be personally successful. You know, how do I get how do I wake up in the morning and no matter what's going on in my bank account, no matter what's going on in my job, I can wake up, look in the mirror and be excited of what I see. Because that when we get there, then everything else is we can appreciate because so often like, you know, and this is a, you know, I don't know, kind of a crazy idea, but I feel like, you know, we're raising a generation of blessing addicts. you know where it's like oh i need that next high i need that next high so they come so people come to church and church does a job of facilitating this right where it's like we're going to give you that high of a blessing and god's going to bless you and god's going to do so we just go from one blessing to one blessing to one blessing but when we perceive the blessings to have stopped we don't know how to cope we're waiting on that fix i need that other thing versus like no, I'm good being me. The blessing is life. Period. God woke me up today. I'm blessed.

13:49 That's the end of story. I'm blessed. We're blessed. So for me, you know, it took the process of believing in, you know, achievement, right? Oh, I'm going to go get these things and those things happening, and then me realizing that the things in and of themselves can't produce the joy and excitement and contentment and peace that I was searching for. So then I had to say, well, okay, I need to work on loving me, understanding me, appreciating me. So then I can go and do the things that God has allowed me to do, but I'm doing it from a deeper place where I don't need these things to feel a certain way. I'm actually bringing the feeling that I already have to the things that God has allowing me to do. I love that so much. It reminds me, I was probably 22. Remember when Jim Carrey was at the height of his career, like the mask and the cable guy, like all the great Jim Carrey movies. And he came out with this quote. I could not believe it.

14:50 Cause you know, I'm in my early twenties in that striving mode. And his quote came out and he said, I wish everybody would be rich and famous so that they would know that life is not about being rich and famous. And that blew my mind. And I just think, why does it have to take, I mean, I'm grateful for people like you. Thank you for being who you are, for having achieved that. So you can tell the rest of us, Hey, you know what? This does not bring about the substance of life that you think it's going to bring about. You know, I can't help but think about Ecclesiastes, you know, Solomon and the life that he led and he's tried it all, right? He had all the women. He got all the wisdom. He got, had all the money. He had all the influence. He said all of that. And there's a word that he used. He said, all of it is old, new old King James translates it vanity. But if you look at the word, it's actually vapor and vapor is such an interesting thing to me. It's like, you know, when you take off an airplane and you fly through the clouds and it looks like there's going to be substance there. And then all of a sudden that plane goes through the clouds and you realize, oh, they were just a vapor. It was actually just emptiness. And man, you're so right. A generation is going after things. And it's a common human condition.

16:02 You can look at Solomon and realize it always has been. But I want to dig down a little bit on what you just said, that the church has played into this and that we have made a level of blessing addicts because I could not agree more. We grew up in that context. And I think there is part of us as pastors and leaders who are trying to fight against that. But I want to hear in your words, in your vernacular, what you think is happening there and how we can do something different. Yeah. I mean, you know, I've been in the church, you know, my, my whole life, you know, so I've had a Christian experience from, you know, as long as I can remember being alive. And I think where I feel like we miss it in the church is we, we don't really give people the tools and the instructions on how to harness who they are. Whoa.

16:54 And to actually, because see, there's a difference. It's like, yes, we, you know, David talks about being, you know, born in sin and shaping in iniquity. Okay. That, yes. But we also look at the potter, right? So the potter does not condemn the vessel when the vessel isn't the way it needs to be. The potter takes the exact same materials and reshapes it, but doesn't condemn the materials it was made with. Come on. So we as we come up in the church, we don't actually like who we are. We're taught to love God. We're taught to love Jesus. That's great. But do you love yourself? out. And then in the absence of not knowing how to love ourselves or appreciate ourselves or find the value of who God created us to be, then what happens is we consistently teach a message about seeking that value outside. Well, God's going to bless you with the right maid and God's going to bless you with the right house and God's going to bless you with the right job and God's going to bless you with the promotion. And I'm not saying God doesn't do all of those things. However, However, if we don't have love of self and a sense of self and a sense of identity and security and who we are, then all of those things become sinking sand.

18:07 And I feel like in the church, we have just been teaching people about the getting, but not about the being. God is not going to return. Jesus won't return to say things. He will return to say people. and how to me i think about this often how sad would it be that a life was spent trying to get but a life was never experienced just being so you get to the end of your life and you never actually experienced what was possible because you never really got clear on who you were and never really focused on that. You got the house, you got the car, you got the job. On your deathbed, none of it's going to matter. The only thing that will matter was, what did I get out of this experience that God gave me called life?

19:01 And did I get to know the me that God allowed me to be to experience life? So I just feel like the church, we get so caught up in correcting people, right? Like the church takes on a position that I don't think the church was designed. Jesus, the person that Jesus corrected to the people, and you all know this because you're a pastor, he corrected the religious leadership. He really wasn't, he wasn't out here like telling people you're wrong and you're going to hell. No, if anything, he met them with love and acceptance and understanding. But so often we then don't give that love, acceptance and understanding to ourselves. And we as the church teach a lot of judgment and ridicule and criticism, so on and so forth, to the degree that when we talk about love, most people hear love in the church as, oh yeah, God's love, but they don't really think love, oh, I love me. It's like, no, I'm messed up. I have all these things defective in me. And so I need to have these different things right in my life for me to feel love. So it's a long answer to your question.

20:07 You know, but I just feel like, you know, so much of the teaching, you know, has been about the external and not enough about the internal. Because I do feel that, you know, we have leaders at times, you know, and look, my uncle, I was raised in his church, you know, Uncle Pastor DJ Williams, he died years ago. And I love him because he instilled the word of God in me. But like, I wouldn't say that he was happy. I wouldn't say he talked about the joy of the Lord but I don't know that he had the joy of the Lord I don't because it was so much about the doing and the being and the achieving never was it about like hey I'm actually content being who I am and so for me I I had to really go through trials and tribulations to get to this place of saying wait a minute we may have something completely off in how we're articulating the gospel what the gospel means and really what we're driving people to war. And I would argue, I mean, Devon, the wavelength we're on right now is a 25-foot wave, and I just want to ride it. So my goodness, and if you don't write a book about this one, I'm not going to talk to you ever again. So I'm dead serious. I mean, not totally. But don't you think, like, I would argue in terms of mission, and bear with us listeners, because I want to let's get into some, some, you know, theology. We're already well into it here. Um, and that is, I actually think Jesus followers are loving their neighbor to the extent they love themselves. I actually think that's what's problem. That's the problem with mission right now is because we don't love ourselves. We don't like who we see in the mirror and we treat our neighbors the same way. So we, we as preachers, and we'll let's talk as preachers for them. And all three of us are preachers. We keep telling people, Jesus followers, go love your neighbor.

21:59 And I actually think they are, but because we didn't get the first part, right? The second part, which is the essence of mission, which is loving your neighbor. They're doing it just like they love themselves. So they're, they're ignoring their neighbor. They're escaping their neighbor. They're critical of their neighbor. They gossip about their neighbor. They judge their neighbor because that's what they do to themselves. So good. Oh, that's so good. It's everything you're saying. And I don't know where we, I think it's a collusion by the church, which let me just be real clear. We are church lovers. We are church folk. We are church people. We are church offsoring on this podcast. But I think the church colluded with the culture and the culture is so preoccupied and so enamored with possessions and arrival. And I think the church colluded with it. And I think if we're not careful, some of the most popularized preaching and podcasts and sermonizing in the church right now is very well and truly colluded with the idea that I've got to go get. And that's why it takes someone like Devon Franklin, frankly, it just does to say, listen, look at my bio and ask yourself if this is not what you're reaching for. And then now listen, while I tell you that all of that does not mean that I look in the mirror and love me. So what causes that? And maybe Mary had it right when she was crisscross applesauce in the living room in front of Jesus. And Martha had it wrong when she was in the kitchen trying to cook for him. And I think a lot of Christians are busy in the kitchen and Jesus wants us to come to the living room and sit with him. Cause he said, that's the one thing that is necessary in life. And we're not doing it. We're so busy doing for God, which is so hilarious as if he needs us to do. So yeah. So good. So Devon, can I, I know.

23:57 No, I'll put you, man. Like you said, we're riding the wave. So riding this wave that you started with the amazing question of, Hey, what are you most excited about? The word you actually said at the very beginning was I'm practicing, as I'm doing this. So what are some of the practices that you have been doing that you've been initiating to try to bring this about in your life? Yeah. So, so you think that's a great question. You know, the part of the practice is first and foremost, awareness, awareness, because, cause we're, we're, we're, we're, you know, I know for me, I can be on the go so much that I'm not even aware. So I say, okay, Devon, just relax and just be aware. How are you feeling? First and foremost, how are you feeling? And if, and if for some reason you're not, you know, feeling good, well, Devon, why aren't you feeling good? Where is that negative emotion coming from? Because usually that negative emotion is, is because of a perspective that's inaccurate.

24:59 Right? So it's like, okay, I'm, I'm having a negative emotion about this thing. And then I'm internalizing it. No, okay. No, no, relax. So it's awareness. It's, it's identifying how I feel and just being okay with that. You know, it comes also to a place of like being okay with where I am in the journey. So, so, you know, it's like, okay, Judy, we're talking about earlier working out. So I was like, all right, you go to, we go to the gym and, you know, let's say you can bench press, you know, 150 and I'm bench pressing 250. Okay. That's where you are in your journey. That's where I am in my journey. Instead of being like, oh, I didn't lift enough because I didn't lift what Devon lifted. It's like, no, I lifted at the level that gave me the strength I needed. So let me just be okay with that. Let me say that's where I am. And guess what? If I keep showing up, eventually I'll get to a place where I can do 250 and more, but I am going to appreciate the 150 I just did. So it comes to appreciation. It comes to reading, yes, the word for sure, but also reading other books, you know, and just keeping my mind, you know, educated and just, you know, having different ways of thinking. It comes through prayer. It comes through, you know, meditation. And then it also comes through assessing, okay, what is it that I really want in this season. Right. And, and why do I want those things and being really clear on my intentions? That that's part of this as well, where it's like, okay, I am practicing being more excited about me. Then that means I have to look at all of me, right. Including my intentions.

26:43 And sometimes, you know, no matter how holy we want to be, our intentions aren't good. They're not. It's like, no, I want to, you know, for me, it's like, okay, I want to do that movie because I like it, but I also like the money that's associated with it. You know what I mean? Okay. Well, is it the money or is it the message of the movie that's really motivating you? And I have to, for me, the way that I've been able to have success and operate in the world is I have to stay message oriented. Like I have to do things because that's, I want to create that, not because of the money. Don't get me wrong. The money is important, but whenever my intention is more about the money than the message, then I get off track. So, so, you know, part of the practice is assessing my intention. Why do I want what I want? And why do I want it so badly? And last thing I would say is that, you know, this is kind of a concept I've really been trying to wrap my head around, which is, you know, okay, if all things work together for the good of those that love him and are called according to his purpose, and he will provide all of our needs according to his riches and glory, then I have to buy into the idea that then everything that's happening in my life, whether I like it or not, is exactly what I need.

28:04 Everything, every disappointment, every frustration, you know, every delay, it's all here for my good. And he is actually supplying not what I want, but what I need. So I need to not have what I want when I want it. So he's going to allow some delays because what I really need is to learn patience. It's not that he doesn't have things going. He has a lot of stuff planned, but he's allowing, okay, maybe financially things aren't where I want them to be. God's like, okay, I am still providing your needs because you need to learn how to manage your money better. You need to know that you don't need all that you think you need to have a lifestyle. So instead of like yearning for days to be different, I say, oh, okay, I can wrap my mind around right now, even with certain things that I want that have not yet manifested, I can still say he's providing all of my needs because if I needed something that I currently don't have, he would provide it. And if I think that I need something that he hasn't provided, that means I don't need it because I'm buying into the idea that right in this moment, he has provided all of my needs. And most of the times we don't really get in touch with what our needs are. We get in touch with what our wants are. So we will judge God based upon whether or not we've achieved our wants, but God's like, listen, I'm going to go past your want. I'm a look at what you need because I know you. You know what I mean? And you need more patience, Devon, and you need more clarity and you need more acceptance of self. So I'm going to hold back some stuff because I know what you need. And if I gave you everything that you wanted, your needs would never be met. And that's the difference. We get needs and wants mixed up.

30:01 So this idea going to your question about practice, it's like practicing fundamentally thinking differently, having a different perspective that allows me to look at this moment. Last thing I'm going to say on this, it's like this moment is all we got. This is it. The future for us has not manifested. The past is already done. So much of how we are socialized into Christianity is not about appreciating the moment. Well said. Yeah. It's about the future. what's coming, what's on the way. So if I keep looking for something that doesn't actually exist in my reality, and I never actually appreciate the reality that God has provided me with, I am going to get through this life and I'm never going to have lived. I'm never going to have experienced all that was available to me. So I call it a practice because I've been socialize to think and act differently. So I have to practice consistently the retraining and the rethinking of my mind to be able to have this level of appreciation in the moment that isn't dependent on what may happen tomorrow or happen even after we get off this podcast.

31:19 And I couldn't agree more. And I think it's, it's laden throughout the story of Jesus and the New Testament letters in terms of this idea that we are perpetually, C.S. Lewis believed that hell in and of itself was kind of an in-between place, meaning that torment equaled this idea of neither here nor there, constantly on the way and never arriving. He saw that as a form of hell. And yet, Devon, if we're honest, Chelsea, if we're honest as preachers, we have popularized this idea that You're on your way. Your blessings come in your way. And all the stuff that we clapped and danced and shouted and sang, it wasn't all totally accurate. Meaning, if you look at Mary and Martha and that story that I referenced a little bit earlier, Martha is in the kitchen cooking. And Jesus Christ of Nazareth in physical, visible form is in her home.

32:20 And instead of being in the living room with him, she's in the kitchen cooking, thinking that's the noble and moral, almost high ground to properly serve him. And I think it encapsulates without even knowing it. And I got to admit, I didn't always intend to preach sermons to that end. But without even knowing it, 10 years we spent speaking to teenagers and young people and college students and in that formative years telling them, man, cook, cook, cook, cook, cook, you know, go do, go be who God's called you to be. never even stopping to say probably because it wasn't very popular. And a lot of people weren't shouting in sermons that ended up saying, just be here now because he's in the room and he loves you and he's proud of you and he made you. You're fearfully and wonderfully made. That in our Western world, if we're honest, doesn't always sell books and doesn't always get podcasters. And I guess in a way, we're also kind of ringing the bell going, this is a bit of an alarm. We might not have got this one right. And we're all in our 40s now trying to tell people out there willing to listen, hey, if you think you like some of our careers and our successes, stop the recording for a moment and go, listen, it's not everything you think it is. If he's in the room be with him be with yourself love yourself be who you are and and man i could go on and on what are you going to say well i just want to so powerful meaningful to me so meaningful and first i just want to say thank you for saying that because i don't want to sit around being here saying like hey we're criticizing the church without acknowledging not criticizing but just critiquing or bringing loving feedback without acknowledging the part that you and i have personally play absolutely in doing that in in years of ministry when we were immature even now unknowingly giving people think about the future think about the future without giving them a contentment for now you know i can't help but think of the apostle paul when he wrote

34:26 philippians and he was in in prison most likely not a house shirt house prison in rome he was mostly probably had not seen daylight for months or years imagine what that would be like not even and being able to see daylight. And in that place, he said, I have learned whatever state I am in to be content. And I think so much of what you're talking about, Devon, I just hear over and over contentment, content with who I am, content with what I have, content with what my life holds. And just that taking a breath and being at ease with all of that. But man, it's so much easier said than done. As you were talking, first of all, I heard three A's in your practices and I was with Judah. I was like, okay, this better be a book. It was like awareness and assessment. I love a good alliteration. Yeah, right. Such a good alliteration.

35:19 But I would acknowledge how much courage, what those practices you were talking about, those steps take courage. I mean, to sit around and ask yourself, what am I really feeling and why do I feel that way? Is there something in my mind? Or what do I want and why do I want that? Those are very courageous questions to ask yourself. Love that. But I also feel like, yeah, maybe they are courageous, but I think it comes from, I think part of how we present, we don't really talk about the pain that we go through. right so it's like you know you're not posting pain on instagram most of the time you know what i mean you're posting the wins and the zigzag all this kind of stuff but what but what we don't really take time to acknowledge is that no matter how faithful or unfaithful we may or may not be we all as part of this human condition experience pain and how we respond to pain fundamentally determines the quality of our life that pain can be, we try to sometimes anesthetize it, suppress it, deny it. Sometimes, you know, it's like, okay, I'm in pain. And what am I going to do? I'm going to try to church my way out of it. I'm going to try to read my way out of it. I'm going to try to drink my way out of it. You know what? Everyone chooses a way to deal with pain in terms of anesthetizing it for me, you know, going through the pain of my divorce. And, and I had an option. I had an option. Am I going to allow the divorce and the pain of it to get me to say, okay, well, you know what? Another woman's on the way and that woman's going to be right. This woman wasn't right. That is so easy to say, because then what happens? Inherently, then I point the finger. For me, I said, I don't want to take the pain that I'm feeling and not take accountability for it. Okay. What's the pain

37:29 here to teach me about me. Where did I go wrong? What are the things that with what I know now that I would do differently? Because at the end of the day, I can go get married again, but the same one that was in the marriage that didn't work is going to be the same one that's showing up to the new marriage if that person, me, doesn't do my work. So part of the work is to say, this pain is happening for a reason, right? I didn't pray for the divorce. I didn't want the divorce in terms of ever thinking that it was going to happen, but it happened. So when I was younger, I was playing, I was with over some friends' houses and we, over a friend's house, we were, it was like, you know, third grade and we were playing hide and go seek. And I was, they went and went to go hide and I was counting, you know, down to, you know, one to then go, you know, find them. And so as I tell them, you know, ready or not, here I come, I run and, um, I, I ran into something.

38:34 I didn't even know what it was. All I know is I ran and I just felt something hit my knee. And, uh, at first I didn't look down. I just said, all right, you know what? I hit it, but let me keep going. And I tried to move and I couldn't. And so I looked down at my knee and my knee is like cut wide open, right above the kneecap, blood, everything, you know, gushing all of that. So I'm like, oh God, what am I going to do? So my first response to that was, let me yell for help. I yelled for help. One of the parents came, they got me, they saw it, they wrapped it up, rushed me to the hospital, ended up having surgery. I ran past a flower bed that had some wood that got cut out. So my whole point is that I was in the hospital for a couple of days. They did surgery. I was on crutches for a while, but here's my point. if I ran past the flower bed, cut my knee open, and act like I'm not in pain, then I actually missed the opportunity to get the healing that the pain presents as a possibility. And this is what happens. We go through life. And this is another thing. Again, I'm on my soapbox about church. This is another thing. We don't teach people how to deal with pain, right? Like it's okay. We're all going to go through it. I, in order for me to deal with that knee, I had to acknowledge that I was cut in the first place.

39:57 And then I had to go get the proper help in order to heal appropriately. So, so when you talk about courageous questions, you know, I had to say, okay, this wound, this, this pain of the divorce is a wound that has cut open my heart. I, on my own, am not qualified to heal it. So I need to get into therapy. I need to read. I need to seek counsel. I need life coaching. I need to better understand how do I take this pain and create purpose from it? How do I become better for it? How do I move in my life and this pain benefited me instead of me just getting mad at God that I got pain, that I had this pain to begin with. So the courage really comes from the desire to be healed, the desire to know better and then do better. That's where it comes from because at the end of the day, I don't want to be one of those people, you know, guys, preachers, teachers. I don't want to be one of those preachers that's just, you know, I'm going to skirt over my own pain and not do the work that I need to do.

41:08 And then come tell, come give you a word. Wow. What? Wow. No, no, no, no, no. You will get a word when I'm ready. Cause I got to go heal. You know, I got to go work on this, you know, and we're all healing. Right. So I'm not saying you have to be healed to be qualified to give a word. But my point is the courage comes from the desire to be healed. And the only way for that to happen is to acknowledge the pain. what is causing me pain and what can I learn from it instead of anesthetizing it. Yep. We, we built a culture to avoid pain, you know, just no pain, no pain. Like I just don't want any pain, but in reality, ready or not, here comes pain. And do you feel like in a culture, in a church culture where we idolize blessings or make blessings the goal that can easily set people up that if blessings are the gift of God, then pain must mean I'm doing something wrong.

42:06 I'm bad. I'm wrong. God's not for me. So in the church community, I'm just going to hide that pain and pretend like it's not there because that pain means something's wrong with me. But this is the irony of that. Okay. Can we name anyone that God used significantly in the Bible that did not experience pain? Not one. Not one. So pain is not always a sign that we did something wrong. Yep. Pain is there to teach us and to help us and to humble us if we allow it to do that. And if we were supposed to get through pain-free, then what would be the need for the cross?

42:59 The cross was the ultimate painful experience that the one we profess to follow had to endure for the glory that was on the other side of it. And so we aren't really preparing people how to deal with their crosses. How do you deal with those moments? How do you deal with the anxiety? How do you deal with the frustration? How do you deal with the depression? And guess what? Not all of it can be solved by bringing it to Jesus. Jesus is saying, I have equipped great minds and therapists and doctors and people on this earth that can operate and help you. Not everything can be done just with like, hey, I'm just praying on it. Well, no, you got to get in therapy too. Because God has blessed that therapist to help you. Community, connection with fellow humans. This is fundamental to our faith. I started therapy about eight or nine months ago.

43:52 And when you were talking about identifying your emotions, this is where I'm at. The way I tend to deal with things is I just numb, numb, pretend it's not there, pretend it's not there. Well, I found myself in my mid forties, just numb on life. Because if you numb the pain, then you numb the joy. We don't get to choose what emotions we numb. So I just found myself numb. Judah was at a place where I would give him a compliment. And he said, I don't believe you. I don't even believe the nice things you're saying about me. I was just, just numb. So finally started on therapy. And this is, this is where I had to start. I had to start with an emotions wheel, a diagram of all the different human emotions. And once a day I had to, right. I literally had to pull it out and look at it and say, okay, this is what I'm feeling right now. I would ask her what's she feeling. She's like, hold on. She'd pull it out. She'd be like, uh, Oh, I'm feeling that. And I was like, that's fantastic. But I know all the scriptures about all the emotions, but I needed that professional who had been gifted by God to sit down and tell me, no, this is a tool and a practice that is going to help you un-numb yourself from the numbness that you put yourself in.

45:03 Absolutely. I mean, and first of all, thank you for sharing that. I find that, you know, amazing and courageous yourself to share that. But what you're saying is so good because we do tend to know. We do tend to push through. We do tend to avoid whatever we think is going to be painful versus taking the opportunity to identify, well, what's there? And then not only what's there, but then how do I feel about it? And anything that we suppress, I believe we empower to destroy us. so when we're suppressing those emotions and that pain it's going to come out so what you were saying is like the way that you're you know suppressing the pain came out is in being inauthentic in your interactions yep because anything we suppress it's coming out in an unhealthy way that's just how this works so it's like all right let me as you mentioned Chelsea hey let me take let me go get in therapy and yeah I'll use the wheel and this is another thing we have so much um pride in how we look when we're in our process and so I say you know get the vanity out of your victory like yeah you know what babe I'm for me right now in this season I need this wheel because I'm trying to get reoriented with how I feel and I know it looks corny I know it looks weird but it actually is really helping me yep and this is a part of my process. And I'm willing to risk you judging me for it, but this is what I need in this season.

46:39 What's wrong with that? That's powerful. So now you can get eight months out of it and you're like, okay, I may not need the wheel now because now I'm more accustomed to identifying the wheel within. I'm more able to identify what feeling is spinning within my soul because I had the physical wheel that was given to me by someone God gifted to help me. But here's the thing. If if all you said was, I'm taking it to Jesus. Jesus is like, yeah, I hear you. But you don't realize if you would just say you need some help, this person actually is me through that person. Right? So, you know, anyway. I don't mean to ramble, but I don't sure. If Jesus was enough, he would not have looked at Adam in the garden and said it is not good for man to be alone. And I know that's a tension that we walk in as faith leaders. But yes, Jesus is enough. Yeah, more than enough.

47:30 More than enough. He's everything that we need. But what he has given us is community and people and others and experts. And that's how he has set up this world. And we learn so much more about him through each other and through connection. And by the way, when it comes to, I just got to say this, and I know we're coming up on our time. But I love that we like prepared notes. Not one single thing have we covered, nor did we need any of that. I love it. I love it. We can go on and on. But, you know, Jesus was perfect. And you could argue he experienced some of the worst pain in human history. And so I just want to say to everybody out there, because a big theme of what we're talking about is pain, is being present, is really leaning into community and connectivity. And Devon, your candor, it's just who you are. There was no doubt in my mind we were going to it was going to end up being this kind of incredible conversation. But, you know, for people who think pain is an indication of their flaws, sometimes you can be so good at what you do.

48:37 You can be so effective that it brings about even more pain in Jesus experience, even in his perfection. And I just, I say that only because I want anyone willing to listen to this crazy podcast to know that even when you are at your peak and at your best, oftentimes pain comes at its worst. And to not be discouraged. Like, Devon, like you started this whole thing saying, man, I'm trying. Right now I'm most excited. That's literally how this whole episode went. I'm most excited about basically being present, loving me, being content with who I am, looking in the mirror and being able to smile back at that guy. And I can't tell you what that means to Chelsea and I, because we must be saving. We must be serving the same savior because that is in so many ways where we're at in our life. Just going, man, it's so fun. Like all this stuff we've been able to do and people we know and great, amazing people like you, but it's like, man, If I don't wake up in the morning and look back at that dude in the mirror and be like, yo, man, I love you.

49:43 Something is terribly wrong about my faith journey and my lifespan. So so thank you doesn't even do it justice. I mean, honestly. No, absolutely. I mean, I'm just grateful for the opportunity. You know, every time we get together, it's always a good time and an appointed time, you know, and to be able to talk through these things and get underneath the hood, you know, of it is so important. Um, because at the end of the day, as leaders, I believe God's going to hold us accountable. God's going to hold us accountable. And, and so we do have a higher level of responsibility to do our own work. That's right. Yep. That we can help others do theirs. Yep. If I'm avoiding pain, if I'm not trying to heal, whatever I tell someone else, they may not even recognize it, but it's going to be very shallow. It's going to be very performative.

50:38 And I think that where we are as a culture is we got to get past the performance. And we got to get to a place where people start to learn how to be people. Pain is a part of that. It is. It's a part of the journey. But that's where community can come in. Hey, we're all in pain. We're all hurting. Okay, instead of chastising or judging, we're going to love. And part of that love is to say there's enough space here for you to nurse your pain. There's enough space here. You don't have to go outside of this community to find, no, everything you need, we can help as a community provide because we genuinely love you. Why? Because we genuinely love ourselves. And when you love something, you treat it with the utmost care. When you love someone, you treat them with the utmost care. And that's where I want us to get is starting to treat ourselves with the very care that God treats us.

51:35 And I love that picture of community. And I really true believe that is the community that God wants us to be and have in the church. And thank you for this conversation. I really do think conversations like this can help get us closer to God's plan for who we're going to be as a church and a community. And you've just been an amazing faith leader in your journey. Thank you for being forward in your faith. Thank you for not apologizing for your relationship with Jesus, for not compromising who you are. I mean, it's just, you are a hero to us. to know that, okay, Devon can do it. He's been doing this. We feel less alone. Yeah. We're just so appreciate where you are. We're all in this together. We're in this together. We love you so much. Thank you for your time. Love y'all back. And I know everybody who listens is going to be so encouraged. So I love you, man. Truly, we really do. Love you too. So good. Appreciate y'all. Right on. Have a good one. And that's a wrap. Love you, man.

52:29 Thank you so much. Honestly, it couldn't possibly have been better. It always is. And that's a full hour that you gave us. So, um, I owe you, uh, at least, uh, uh, a willingness to come to the gym and watch you work out. I honestly, Devon, we're going to get you one of these days. We're going to get it. I swear you were in our bathroom yesterday for our conversation that we were having about purpose and identity and all that was so crazy that that's where, like, that's where you started this. And that's why we just jumped on it. So, so much. So thank you for being willing to come out the gate. Appreciate y'all. Love y'all. Anything you need, I'm right here. Thanks for your time. See you soon.