Divine Justice vs. Earthly Fairness: Navigating Life's Inequities

1:51 we were not fair to our children well i don't think i'm fair with my time for instance i think i give extra time to whichever one needs extra time as i perceive it which i hope my perception is accurate but sometimes it isn't so um you know we got a 14 year old right now who's a freshman and then we have a 19 year old who's in the workplace in the workforce and and um they each need their own respective time accordingly and then one right in the middle who's who's big and and playing good high school basketball and thinking about college. Frankly, we're also not fair with our finances. No money, time, attention. Truthfully, like we have two boys, our oldest, Grace is our daughter. We definitely spend a lot more money on Grace than we do on the boys. Yeah. She's into like getting Starbucks on the way to school every morning. And we went to an event recently where someone was saying you could use the same money you use every morning for Starbucks and sponsor some incredible children who are in need.

2:49 and I let her know that we both sponsor Kids in Need and go to Starbucks. Because I really enjoy going to Starbucks. But I never took the boys to Starbucks. No, you did not. Yeah, holy graze. Why do you take that? Because she asked and she's my only daughter and I got excited. And it seemed fun. Okay, so that's my easy. Don't pick up my notes now that you're being so convincing that you are not. I was looking at your notes. I saw your eyes went straight to my notes. Men don't think women see where their eyes go, but we can tell. Oh, that is a different episode for a different time. But I'm down. Let's go there. It was a good call out. Where are my eyes now? It was a good call out, right? That was really good. Okay. So that your assessment of fairness leads me to the difficult question. Okay. Is God fair? All right, Judy here. Let's talk about being healthy.

3:41 I'm not going to lie. I do not feel like I am a very great example at all. I'm always looking for cracks in the code. What's the cheat? What's the shortcut? All those things is basically how I live. And I wish I worked out more. I wish I took vitamins. I wish I took care of my body more. But I do try to eat pretty clean. And ladies and gentlemen, AG1 has come to my rescue. One little scoop every single day at approximately for me, it's like 2pm. I do a intermittent fasting. I don't want to brag. And I first gave it a try because I was looking for a simple solution that would just kind of knock out all of the vitamins and all the nutrition that I needed. And I've been doing it every single day. I feel really energized. I actually do. I feel strong. I also feel like super proud of myself. And it's a habit. And it's become a really productive habit for me. So this is me on this podcast telling you for real, try AG1. You can get a free one year supply of vitamin D3, K2 and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase exclusively at drinkag1.com backslash in good faith. Again, that is drinkag1.com backslash ingoodfaith.

5:03 Guys, try it. I am so serious. It's actually helped. It really is a cheat code. So there you go. No, he is just. You want to expand on that a little bit or you want me to? God is right. God is true. God is integrity. God is truth. God is love. But some people are tall. Some people are fast. Some people are short. some people are slow um life is not fair the news right now proves life's not fair god's not fair um there are people in certain parts of the world that are being bombarded literally and um we're not currently and that's not fair okay i was going to agree with you i mean literally like my thesis in prepping this episode really was god is not fair but he is just and getting into that but then in research i came across to the merriam webster's definition of fairness oh gosh yeah this might change everything mr webster mr webster miss merriam oh yeah i don't know why would i assume it's mr webster right well probably because it was written webster's dictionaries were started before women's were able to write books in our country but speaking of fairness Yeah, speaking of disgusting.

6:25 I'm sorry. But actually, I don't know who Merriam or Webster are, and if it's a last name or a first name or a first name. Let's go with the old they then. If it is a woman that did that incredible dictionary, I trust it far more. I just want to say that. I don't know if that's very fair of you. It's not. It's not. Okay, so the Webster's, Merriam-Webster's definition. It used to be just the Webster's definition. Webster's dictionary, by the way. Oh, yeah. And now it became the Merriam-Webster's. what happened there looking at our producers they have no answers either okay they don't know the etymology of the dictionary less than joe and joe and west have nothing to say which is bizarre okay so joe's doing you've been waiting okay focus steroids we're here okay um this is the conversation yeah you can talk to them later i know they're fun i've known joe since he was like 10 years old i know okay mary how many times have i tried to say that mary webster's definition of fairness i think i'm on like seven yeah so okay their definition is free from self-interest prejudice or favoritism whoa um god is perfect so i think his self-interest is how should i say justified um and so i i that would be the only thing i'd push back on free from self-interest that god does operate with self-interest or he doesn't uh if god doesn't operate in self-interest we're all doomed because he's the only trustworthy perfect being to ever exist his self-interest is actually In the best interest of all of us who are riddled with a completely different kind of self-interest.

8:09 Yes. But in general, that is a pretty decent picture of who God is, right? He doesn't operate just for his own pleasure or from prejudice or from favoritism, the way that we see or define favoritism. Well, then maybe we need to talk about cultural fairness, the connotation of the culture when it says fairness. I'm the one with the notes and I know where I'm going. And do you know where the next place I'm going is? our cultural definition of fairness. We have been married way too long. Way too long. So with that in mind, because definitions of words are so powerful, but they also do, words do evolve and change over time. And I feel like the Webster definition of fairness isn't what most people think of when we hear the word fairness. Like, are you fair? Is it that? Like you don't most of the time operate in self-interest towards our kids or prejudice or favoritism.

9:02 but you don't treat them always with divvying out. Anyway, I was going ahead of myself. What would you say the cultural definition or connotations of fairness is? One word, same. Same. Same, sameness. Same. When we say fairness, we mean sameness. We want everybody to be the same. We want everybody to be the same. Somebody described it to me, which I thought was really interesting. It's somewhere along the intersection of equal outcome and, sorry, equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. that there is enough opportunity given that people could have the same equality of outcome if they put the same effort, energy, human will or whatever towards it. Well, I mean, now we're getting really good definitions here, but I think that's saying a little more than the culture means, but I'm a big proponent of opportunity, giving human beings opportunity uh is that the state of our world no am i a believer in that in a lot of ways yes yeah but but the the idea of hoping that everyone given the same opportunity would have the same outcome is just a really poor assessment of the human experience okay but i'm gonna push back on that a little please a little bit um even if our world was structured in a way that everybody had the same external opportunities.

10:26 We're all so unique and different as human beings that we don't have the same. Thank God. Right? I mean, I just look at our three kids and obviously I think approaching this as a parent is helpful because we love our three kids equally. Yeah. And they have had, I mean, one of our kids is just really good with money. like he okay it's elliot i'll say it since i'm since i'm i'm bragging on it like we've we have given our kids the same coaching around how to handle finances they've had the same green light app shout out to green light and the same allowance and the same like she gets sponsorship from green light right right right like okay keep it moving i actually it's an amazing product and Now they're getting a free sponsorship. Yeah, that's a good point. Look at that.

11:18 But just the way he sees money, the way he handles it, the way it's not anything that we have given him. It was something that was innate and internal in him. He just handled it differently. And even though his external circumstances have been the same as his siblings, he just, he, like, our other two kids have, like, they live, like, allowance to allowance. They've had the same amount of money. he has thousands of dollars saved up. I don't understand how or why. Right. So, well, I mean, that's like, that's like saying, you know, if you give every human being the same paint and the same canvas, um, there's going to be the same outcome. Um, you know, maybe that metaphor breaks down. Of course it's not foolproof. No metaphor is, but yeah, that's just, you know, what we would lose all of the innovation and art that makes this world so spicy and fun. Um, And I just want to say for the record, not knowing what topic we're going into, you've already said that, that by no means by tempting this topic and all the nuances and variables in it, do you and I pretend to set ourselves up as people who understand individuals all over the world who've had next to no opportunity?

12:31 Um, you know, I feel like you and I have been privileged in an extraordinary way to be given outrageous opportunities and, uh, which, which brings us to, to this podcast in a lot of ways. So, so we are living proof that far be it from us to even have the conversation about equal opportunity, because we are the result of, of individuals who have gotten, um, unequal opportunity for sure. Yeah. In, in our favor. Yeah. In our favor. In our favor. In our favor. In our favor. I think the reason you and I are having this conversation today, the reason it came up, and I know you don't prep and you don't know specific things. Yeah, I like the why. I like the why. But we do have, it actually has come from a lot of conversations that you and I have had about looking at the world. A big passion of ours. A big passion of ours. And I think so much of our fulfillment and our contentment in life has to do with expectations, whether they are met or unmet.

13:27 like most of our fights literally come from i expected we were going to have a date and it was going to be wonderful and it was romantic and you expected that we were going to have more like a working dinner and we were gonna i don't know why that's what came to mind and i think it's usually inverted but i appreciate the example until i was gonna say we're like we're gonna be on our phones and like checking other other things and i'm like and i'm expecting a like got a good point there a deep uninterrupted personal conversation and all of a sudden and we didn't communicate it it's not one's not more right than the other but all of a sudden my expectations were unmet and then i'm so disappointed in you i can't help but wonder or think if there's a lot of people in the world right now who have expectations of fairness the way called the way culture defines it expectations of fairness that are leading to deep disappointment because those expectations of fairness are not being met well i mean i feel so unqualified to make these statements um and i'm sure you do too we are again not experts in this area but can i interrupt you before you and can i like give the punchline for the end of the episode we're not going to come to the end of this episode with great answers yeah yeah yeah answering the cosmic questions of the true of the fairness and justice of god and society culture yeah get it all done in 55 who do these people think they are But our goal is to ask questions, have a conversation, just bring it up in a sense that we hope that people's expectations can be realistic and can be met and that we can end up with a deep contentment and satisfaction in life because our expectations are aligned with who God actually is.

15:08 And a lot of the stuff we're talking about is relative to the human experience, meaning it really you got to contextualize it. And for one person listening, it might be, you know, they're considering a massive property that's a mansion. And the other person listening is thinking, man, I would just like to have something to call my own like a home, you know. And so it's all it is all relative. And so we will speak from our own experiences. But this idea of fairness and saying this and similar outcome is a farce. And I think probably the felt need that I experienced and that we're speaking to is deep disillusionment and disappointment. because without even maybe saying it or expressing it or communicating it to your loved ones or your friends or your roommate or your teammate, we all are hoping, if we're honest, oftentimes by default almost without thinking it through, the emotion we're feeling is deep disappointment because we didn't get the same outcome as somebody else who appeared to be doing similar things we were doing or worse, here's the one that really gets me, people who seem to put in far less effort, far less focus, far less commitment, and get results you and I only dreamed of.

16:31 Which goes to a cultural narrative, and this is a bit of a rabbit hole, which is like, I got here because I worked hard. I look at our son who's 6'5", and he's doing great on his basketball team. It's like, yes, he can say he worked hard, and he does, but he didn't make himself 6'5". Yeah. It just kind of happened. And strong and big and able to get rebounds and put it back in. And yeah, that was just given to him as a gift. And there is a lot of that in our society and our culture and entertainment and arts. And not saying that everybody is not a human being with the God-given dignity to be celebrated and loved and valued. But I think you and I are on a journey. We're on a, we're sojourners through this life, hoping that we can be more honest about where we are, more honest about where people that we love and do life with are at because of gift, which is another way of saying grace. God's grace.

17:31 I was given the talents and abilities. I don't ever remember thinking to myself, I'm going to try to be a talker that's so good that people want to listen. and yet a lot of my life has ended up being that and I really like talking but oftentimes I don't know what I'm going to say next but I enjoy listening. Also, your lips that are so perfect and attractive are my favorite thing about you. I love kissing them. Well, I didn't know we were getting into body parts. This could get awkward. Well, no, just you didn't earn them for yourself. You didn't give them to yourself. They were... I did not. They just came in the whole package. That is true. Of who you are. I think though sorry that's such a tangent as you were talking well I love your lips too by the way yeah I'm just grateful I respect everyone's lips I'm just grateful yours aren't that like those little like pencil thin skinny I do get a little bit of help you do?

18:25 yeah what do you mean? just a little just teeny bits of filler injections injections in your lips? did I know that? I think so I mean I've been did you guys know that? Jo and Wes did you know that she gets injections in her lips? you've talked about it? yeah oh so you told joe and wes and you didn't tell me i they just i'm sure i knew they just happen to remember it's actually been years as i started getting a little older my lips started getting a little smaller okay it's like i just want a teeny bit so they can keep their wholeness with age so it's really just a maintenance yeah yeah like a transformative work or anything right let's call it me let's call it maintenance anyway a lot of stuff happening in real time here a lot of stuff happening in real time but anyway the um i think the work hard mentality can lead to arrogance it's like i i worked hard for this and i deserved it so because i have more i'm better than somebody who doesn't which is such an ugly byproduct of our our work hard cultural mentality i mean the american dream um is is really not entirely true and yet the american dream is an incredible privilege that some 300 million people in this country um get to at least consider completely unequally, by the way, with huge advantages and privileges for some and huge disadvantages and unprivileged for others. But nonetheless, I realize there could be people listening from all over the world. It's like what I would give to have a chance to live what is called the American dream. But even the American dream is one of the lead dreams amongst countries of the world is in and of itself untrue. Some people work much, much harder and their life yields far less revenue, for instance. And that is very painful to consider, frankly.

20:13 It really is, which does lead me to, I think what you were trying to say at the beginning before I interrupted you with definitions of fairness, that God is not fair the way that our culture perceives and defines fairness. Obviously, we get our picture of God primarily through Jesus, who was God with skin on, God incarnate, God in the flesh, and how it's revealed in the Bible. I have cheat notes because I've been thinking ahead of time. Don't look at my notes. But can you think of instances where Jesus was not fair the way we define fairness? Oh, I don't even think even who he spends time with. I'm immediately reminded that he takes Peter, James, and John when he's in the garden and when he's in deep turmoil and he asks them to come closer, you know, kind of away from the rest of the 12, which I'm not great at math and And I think Judas wasn't there. So, you know, what does that leave? Eight guys or something?

21:06 I forget what it is. Good job. Is that good? Nailed it. Thank you. Thank you. So what? You know, eight guys don't get to come to the private meeting with Jesus, only Peter, James, and John? Well, that's not fair at all. Mary and Martha and Lazarus get to be really close friends that he spends regular time with. And so close that when Lazarus dies, he undies him. You know, he raises him from the dead. And it's like, wow, that'd be died that didn't get raised from the dead. Exactly. So Jesus' life and ministry shows the, quote unquote, unfair time and attention and affection that he shares with some and not others. Yeah, I think of two parables that Jesus tells. Oh, yeah, the parables. Right? Very difficult to interpret. But the parables are given as an insight into the kingdom of God that we can't understand. Critics are watching this episode.

22:02 They're going to get you for this one. But God help you when you talk about the parables. I understand the parables. Jesus said the kingdom of God is like. I personally think we should use the parables and then try to interpret the parables to help us in our daily life. There are some who believe otherwise. Oh, gosh. Now we're really on a tangent. I think that's where parables go wrong. Where we try to make parables a reality. Say what we want them to. Say what we want them to say. And try to make them like tools and tips for practical living instead of insights into the kingdom of God. Yeah, insights into the character of God, the glory of God. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, Jesus did say the kingdom of heaven, kingdom of God is likened to. And he said likened. He didn't say it's identical to. Yeah. Okay, so now that we've established the parallels. Well, that's important to me. Yes. I mean, that's what we're doing. No, we're going to use the Bible to see God. We have to make sure we use it right. I agree.

22:52 So one of the parables that Jesus talked to help us reveal how God operates from heaven to earth is the parable of the talents. Where, Tia, you describe the parable of the talents. You be a preacher. Well, he gives, yeah, he gives to three different employees or servants. He gives one, three and five or one, two and five, something like that. Talents, which, you know, a lot of conjecture in terms of. Talents were money. Yeah. Were they $10, $100, a thousand bucks? The point is he didn't give the same amount of money to three different leaders or the three different employees, the three different servants. And as the parable goes on, Jesus gets to the end and he's like, now the one guy who got the or gal who got the one talent was afraid and buried it in the ground. And when the leader came back or the owner of the company came back, so to speak, and said, yo, where's my profit? Where's my investment?

23:49 Because the guy with five or three, whatever it was, multiplied it. And the guy with two multiplied it. But the guy with one buried it in the ground said, I knew you to be a difficult and any kind of a fearful employer and leader. And so I hid it in the ground and I just wanted to safely return it to you. And he's like, this is ridiculous. I'm going to take the one talent I did give you and I'm going to give it to the guy who is doubled his talent. And he was given more talents originally than even you were. And so it's like all of a sudden your head starts spinning because you're like, wait, this is what the domain of the king is like? I don't understand. Yeah. And I think there's much I still don't understand about that parable. But one thing I do understand is that if the domain of the king is like that, then by definition, it doesn't fit really anywhere in our cultural connotation of sameness or fairness. Yeah. And another parable that I think of that actually says the same thing, but in a completely opposite way, is the parable of the workers in the vineyard. There you go.

24:48 Where some workers came and started at six in the morning and he said, hey, I'll pay you a talent, which was a day's wages. And I'm like, great. And then he came to a group at different increments throughout the day, some at nine, some at noon, some at the very last hours. They only worked for an hour. But he didn't tell them what he was going to pay them. He just said, hey, whatever is fair, actually. He said, whatever makes sense, I'll pay you. And they said, okay, we trust you enough to work without a contract, basically. And at the end of the day came, Jesus said, now what we're going to do is pay the people who work the shortest amount of time first. And he gave them a talent and then the next people a talent. And the people who worked all day, even though they were working under contract for a talent, they were like, oh man, we're going to get paid so much more because these guys who worked less are getting a talent. And then they got up there and they got their talent. And the response of Jesus as he's telling the parable was, isn't it my money? Isn't it mine to do with it what I please?

25:44 Why are you begrudging me? Because I was generous to somebody else. Which is very interesting because I think those are both saying similar things, which is God is not fair. But one is his fairness in giving everybody the same amount. And his other is his fairness is in giving people different amounts. Yeah. Think of that. Right? It really makes you think of that scripture. His ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. And I think when we make God in our own image, you know, prepare yourselves for a heavy term. But there's a level of idolatry there. And I think when you start talking about compensation and you start talking about there's a level of kind of idolizing compensation. And that somehow compensation would fix the problems of the world. And maybe just maybe those parables speak to that. You just talked about two things that are really important about the idolatry of economy.

26:40 and then the other is our view of god can we talk about the view of god first and then i want to talk about the the idolatry of economy is can you imagine you and i operate as a parents as parents and we love our children and we want the best for all of them yeah and that's where you know we we want them to be flourish we want them to happy we want them to be fulfilled in their relationships we want them to have food on their like we we want these things for our kids but can you imagine if they sat around and held us to say, the only way that you can be a good mom and dad is if you treat us all equally. So you took Grace shopping and spent $22 on her at Forever 21, which you just did. I don't know how much you spent on her at Forever 21. It's probably more than $22. It's like a hundred bucks, I think. Thank you, Forever 21. Because for a hundred dollars, I got my daughter something real nice.

27:32 I appreciate that. But can you imagine if you came home and all of a sudden the boys were like, okay, dad, you did that for Grace. now you have to do that for me and until you do that for me i don't think you're a good dad i don't think you love me your your love for me is on the line your your character is on the line until you treat me the same way you treated grace yeah i mean that would be i think you know you're you're the mom i'm the dad i mean that would be painful and i think my explanation would go something like that's not the way this works um i wanted to do that for your sister and you're time I'm sure will come probably in an effort to ease their pain or something, but it may not. We may never go to Forever 21, you and I, but we'll go over to other places and there's other journeys for us to go on. But when I took your sister to Forever 21, I didn't mean that to in any way reflect on you. But can you celebrate with your sister? Right. Like it actually had nothing to do with the boys. It actually just had something to do uniquely between you and Grace in that moment. Totally. And for the boys to look at that and think that has something to do with me.

28:42 Yeah. I, I, uh, I just think our God is so big and wonderful and loving and kind that, I mean, it kind of falls into that, that category of envy and envy is such a, a force in the world. Um, Hey, you got that, you know, it's the, here in the Western world, we have a term keeping up with the Joneses, you know, and it's kind of that. It's like, man, I, I gotta keep up with the Joneses. And if God did that for the Joneses, why doesn't God do that for the Smiths? Um, and, uh, man, may God help you with that mentality because that, that, that envy that says, I want what you have, by the way, envy isn't always diabolical, evil, and horrible. I think there's a very natural thing where you see somebody and you're like, yo, I actually need to work out. You know, Joe is in really good shape. I actually want to look healthier like Joe. Is that envy? Maybe a little bit. But when it crosses over to it's not fair that Joe is so in shape and I'm not, that's not fair. Now envy has become really a toxic form.

29:46 And can you imagine how free our lives will be, particularly as it relates to our relationship with God, if we can release God from that in our expectations? Oh, man. That we could trust him? Yep. And that's, you know, I'm a big proponent of expressing your frustration to God. He seems to be really comfortable with that and he seems to be okay with that. But I think the resolutions that you and I find with some of the disparities of this life is, you know, you're a good father. Like, I trust you. And what you have for me, you have for me. And what you have for him or her or them or they is between you and them. And I respect that. And I'll just, I'll stop right here for a little caveat. And I'll just say, if you want to be the kind of friend that people want, the ability to celebrate other people and what they and God have worked out and accomplished and received and done is, uh, is amazing.

30:55 I think people in many ways have a unique, special, intimate arrangement with God that is uniquely theirs and respecting that and honoring that and celebrating that. by way of kind of rejecting the toxicity of what envy can become, you become very attractive to people. You become very magnetic to people. They're like, whoa, you just want to hear my successes and, you know, cool things I got to do with cool people today? And you let my successes be about me. And you don't turn around and make it about you. That's a really amazing, special friend who is really incredible. I mean, who doesn't want that person to be their friend? Right. Okay, so our image of God. Anything else you want to say on that? Because you picked up, you laid down two really amazing things. I picked one up. I want to pick up the second one, but do you feel good about image of God? Well, I mean, that's a ridiculous statement.

31:47 Anything else you want to say about the image of God? Like, oh my word. Is it related to fairness? The answer is yes, but no. Yeah, what's the second thing? The second thing you talked about was the idolatry of money. Yeah. uh to me oh and maybe this is gonna just be okay i'm i'm saying this coming from a place of understanding that you and i have never lived in poverty and i mean you grew up in the level of probably borderline poverty um but your parents probably hit it pretty well yeah and my grandma yon grandma yvonne from sacramento um took very good care of us and we got christmas gifts and stuff when times were hard yeah and but you were pretty blessed and as a kid you didn't feel the stress and pressure of that like your parents your parents absorbed that and took that um so i just want to say that with that say what i'm about to say with that care in mind i've never known a day of hunger in my life except for when i was trying to fast which i don't recommend right right intermittent fasting oh you mean Spiritual fasting.

32:52 Yeah, me too. Me too. That's what I meant, yeah. But, so I'm saying that, and I don't believe God wants anybody to be in poverty. God doesn't want any of his children to be hungry. God cares about his children. Yeah. And there's enough scripture to back that up that we can believe that. But I do sometimes wonder if our culture has come to a place where we think money brings happiness, money fixes problems. And so if only we gave everybody equal money, equal opportunity to money, that problems will go away. I know I feel like we're skating on thin ice here. Man. Well, my first response is there is, in all of us, probably somewhat of a willingness to say, yeah, that's probably not true. But can I try? Can I see if maybe it's true for me? And I just want to say I don't blame anybody for that, particularly if you have known true poverty.

34:03 And I think putting true in front of poverty is a pretty outlandish statement. I think just, you know, poverty is true and it affects people very deeply. And there are parts of this world where whole people groups are systematically in poverty. Parts of our country. Parts of absolutely. Oh, my goodness.

34:24 food deserts in this country. Um, you know, so again, I think the carefulness and consideration and kindness we take, um, on a topic like this is, is imperative. We're never going to do it right. Um, so it's easy. I feel like to sit here and pontificate, but nonetheless to, to make some progress and help listeners and, and, and hopefully again, spur conversations for people who listen to this and trust us to speak on such weighty and difficult topics uh ironically i wonder if that statement's relevant right now whoever doesn't know history is almost doomed to repeat it and you know there is some records of of humans on this earth who attempted whole societies and spaces where the whole agenda was to get everybody the same amount of stuff the same amount of money. And in nearly every case, that doesn't seem to work out at all.

35:26 So I'll just leave that on the table for everyone's consideration. And that's a brief amount of research and study and reading that I've done. I don't pretend to be a historian at all. But it doesn't seem to have worked. So what does work? Because I want to dignify the feeling, well, if I had money, stuff would be easier. A lot of that can be true, can be very true.

35:53 You start talking about medical care. Wow. All over the world, if you had more money, can you get better healthcare? Stuff like that. I want to bring a unique perspective into this conversation that happened to you and I recently. So we started our iCloud account, share remember back when on i this is going somewhere by the way but remember on iCloud when you used to have to like purchase songs and purchase movies yeah yeah like back when it started a long time ago and we had one iCloud account that we would purchase songs and we purchase songs on and movies on so when we set up our phones we set it up with the same iCloud account yep because we didn't want to have to buy the songs twice and then family sharing came out and thank you Apple for fixing that, but we still have not done the work that we need to do to separate out our iCloud. Oh, right, right.

36:45 Right? So like we get each other's FaceTime sometimes and it's kind of annoying, but we also get the same news stories. Yes. Like they think we're the same person. So they feed us the algorithm or whatever feeds us the same news stories. And so the other day, you and I both got a news story about an uncontacted tribe. And interesting, we both clicked on it. Like, you know, there's like 20 news stories, maybe click on three a day or whatever. We both clicked on it, which I'm curious why we both clicked on it. But you read the article, did you? I did, actually. Yeah. In the tub. No one needed to know that. Yeah, no one. Well, it's where you read your news stories and pray. Yeah, it's true. Which is what my dad used to do and I thought was weird, but now you do it. Oh, thanks, Dad, for showing me the better way. The way at the bathtub. Yeah. So we read about this uncontacted tribe that live on an island the size of Manhattan off of the nation of India. And basically, they have not had any contact with the outside world from this island.

37:51 Why? In our globalized world, that's pretty crazy to think of that being a reality that we still live in. but obviously we have, I think they say about a hundred people live there. So small tribe. We have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. They think again, people haven't even been there. They, they think that by counting like the boats and people who come out and boats to fish and trying to categorize, figure out how many people live on, live on this Island. And again, we have no idea what life is like. Or what we're talking about. I'm kidding. I'm kidding somewhere.

38:24 But here's a script of people. They don't have Western money. They don't have Western medicine. They don't have sports and they don't have cars. And I don't even, who knows if they're electricity. You know, so many things that- Well, reports where everyone had a fire, kind of like a bonfire area right outside their hut. All right, so their hut. Yeah, so no permanent structure. So you're guessing- I read the article. Yeah, you should have pointed. Good job. You proved it. Thanks.

38:54 Is that tribe any less happy? Right. Is what I'm getting at. because they- I know why we read the article in response to what you're asking. We read the article because we thought, whoa, that sounds amazing. Whoa, whoa. That would, no one contacted them? They're just happy? They're just together? Right. I definitely idealized it. Oh, I romanticized it big time. Romanticized is a good word. Yes, like what life would be like. That's why I read the article. Somehow the algorithm knows, oh my word, this guy's exhausted. Totally separate from life. You know, I had that thought though. Until you get bit by a snake and then you really want anti-venom and it doesn't exist. Yeah. You know, you know. But if you don't know it exists, what do you, you know?

39:39 Yeah. Are those individuals less happy? I mean, we don't know. We may never know. But in my brain, they're not. And so it really starts to challenge the constructs of what so much we fight over down here on earth is, is not even in play on that Island. Which is so interesting with the exception of a few visitors, which is how we got the article and some visitors who never made it off the Island because they were, they were killed and probably seen as a threat. But are they less happy? Would they be happier if we got them Netflix? You know, would they be happier if we got them Nike? Would they be happier if we got them Coca-Cola? I mean, I doubt it. Yeah.

40:31 And I think, again, this is an episode of questions, more than answers. Yeah, totally. But I think we just need to ask ourselves a question. The reason I use the term idolatry of economy, idolatry of money, is what are we believing we're going to find our happiness in? Yeah. And I think the reason that tribe, that uncontacted tribe can give us such a great mind exercise to think around is for us to ask ourselves the question, am I believing in money to make me more happy? Am I believing in the things that this material world can provide? And furthermore, is that why I'm fighting for what I believe in equality? Or are we doing it because we believe in the dignity of all humans? And you read my mind. That's exactly where I want to go.

41:24 One thing we can speak to living in Seattle, living in Los Angeles, two very affluent cities, not without their pain and problems and challenges and a lot of marginalized people and hurting people. But we have had the privilege of being in environments of very, very wealthy people, very powerful people, very well-known people. And I hope this isn't saying too much, but I must report that you can be up and out just as much as down and out. And that might land really painfully for some people. But I think you and I, over the course of the last 11 years, have become very familiar with people who, because of enormous privilege and opportunity, have amassed great wealth and great possessions and great things.

42:26 In some cases, that has made the human experience and the human soul smaller, weaker, and less fulfilling. Yeah. Which is, I think I have been surprised. But I'm not going to mince words here and pretend that one of the things that gives us propulsion in this podcast episode is that the idolizing of opportunity, money, income, housing, has been grossly exaggerated and misappropriated, I think. Yeah, I think it was Jim Carrey who said, I wish that everybody could be rich and famous so that they would know. It's not about being rich and famous. It's not about being rich and famous. Very similar to the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible, where Solomon, who was the wealthiest man. Most powerful, smartest. powerful had thousands of concubines like yeah not counting his hundreds of wives and yeah yeah and that guy was active right as soon as you really wonder like how did he how did you do that but ecclesiastes is basically him chronicling the search for happiness and fulfillment more than happiness like not not a fleeting feeling but a deep fulfilling he called so many things vanity. It's like it's grasping for the wind. It's like an empty vapor. It's like when you take off from an airplane and you see these clouds and you think, oh, they're going to be so full and fulfilling. And then you take off through them and you realize they're nothing.

43:57 The plane just went right through them. That's what vanity is. Solomon is talking about in Ecclesiastes. He's like, hey, I tried money. I tried knowledge. I tried women. I tried living for pleasure and all of it was vanity it actually didn't get to a level of fulfillment and happiness that's right and so when i think about that tribe not to go back to them but i just think man maybe they have really deep rich meaningful connections with each other because it's a hundred people and they and they all and again i'm romanticizing it i'll say that but but man maybe they have all these distractions and there's just deep meaningful relationships and that's actually where true fulfillment comes from. They don't have the distraction of Netflix, although I don't want to give up Netflix. So I don't know. And we speak negatively about Netflix and we're like, as soon as this episode's over, we're going to watch a show.

44:48 The utter hypocrisy. The utter hypocrisy. Of it all. Go ahead. Yeah. I think the state of the human soul is, in other words, Sorry, circling back to say one of the reasons we are proponents of justice as we see in scripture as it relates to the character and quality of God.

45:16 Justice is man being reconciled to God. That is to say the created reconnected to the creator because there is a rightness about that. There is a homeness about that. There is a pilgrimage about that. That's like I have finally come home. My soul can rest. I'm home. That pilgrimage to us is very important and significant. And so justice, I think, as we see in Scripture, is there economic justice? Yes, of course. Is there opportunity justice? Yes, of course. But the ultimate kind of zenith or point or purpose of it is really this idea of each and every human being is an eternal being. who is to return again someday to their eternal home and to be in relationship with the architect, the designer, the creator, and those who have not been given the opportunity to reconnect.

46:19 That is unjust. We see that as something that needs to be addressed. I think, and I celebrate all the incredible social justice workers all over the world. But to minimize it to merely the here and now, to overemphasize here and now is the end all be all, is just saddening. Because if this is it... This is sad. This is sad. But it's also, and I know you're not saying this, but so can I just clarify? Please, correct. Because it's also justice in that we see in the Bible. And again, I don't think you looked at my notes, but you knew where I was going, which is God is not fair, but he is just. And that justice matters. Justice is not just about our relationship with God. It's also, and it's not just about eternity. It also is about our relationship one to another and valuing, valuing each other. Because once we realize who we are in the image of God, and I realize that you are also in the image of God, all of a sudden it doesn't.

47:15 I have to address this. I have to address this. And it doesn't sit right with me that I have tons of food to eat that I throw away and you have no food. That's right. And that's not a function of fairness. That's a function of justice. Because I see you as a son of God made in his image. And the fact that you're hurting and struggling is not right by the definition of who our God is. That's right. That's right. And so biblical justice is that tension always eternal. And it's reestablishing our relationship with God. But it's also here and now. Yeah. It's such a bad metaphor, but I'm going to go with it. it's, you know, in the chiropractor and the spine, I was in the chiropractor yesterday. It's like, if the top, you know, vertebrae, as it were, gets kind of adjusted, there seems to be an alignment down the spine. And I would say justice works like that. It's like, it's pinnacle is man and God, and that every man has equal access through Jesus to God to have a reconciled relationship.

48:17 And then from that place, how can I say that God is who he is, and I'm connected to him, and not love my brother. In fact, the scripture speaks of that. It says, you say you love God, but you hate your brother. You've never met the man. You've never met the father because if you love the father, you love the kids. And so down here, our work of bringing the children of God together to love and serve and care for one another equally, if you will, is this expression of worship to say, we have one father of us all. We love him and to acknowledge him and worship him and interact with him. I don't pray about it. I don't like, I'll see if I want to be a justice person. Then you're not a God person because a God person is a justice person. It's saying, we have got to reconcile this relationship to make it plain in my own context on a daily basis. Our marriage is built on the same premise. We work out our differences because Jesus worked out our difference with God. And because he did that for us, I am propelled. I'm compelled to say, babe, I forgive you. God forgave me. I forgive you. And I have to do that with you a lot. I have to forgive you a lot. So much. But that is the premise of why 24 years later, we're still married. We have plenty of fights, plenty of things I've said to hurt you. And you've hurt me more than I can count. I'm kidding. But actually very true. Isn't it true though? Like the justice in our own marriage is fueled by the justice that Jesus has brought for us with God.

49:49 Yeah. And that brings about true peace. You know, we talked about the parables, the kingdom of God, the Bible says that what happens in the domain of the kingdom of God, where Jesus is ruling, where there is justice. It doesn't say that there's, you know, equality, you know, although there's justice, but it says, there is righteousness and peace and joy. And so often I think we want to have sameness so that we can have peace and so that we can have joy. But we're actually looking for it in the wrong place. But at the same time, as followers of Jesus, I can't stand to see a child of God, somebody created, an image bearer of God, being treated inhumanely or unjustly. Because Judah and Chelsea Smith are not the whole image of God. And when you, when that dawns on you that I am one aspect of the brushstroke of God and that all of God's beautiful people on this planet all make up his images as children.

50:57 I cannot but help defend the assaulted and the attacked and the marginalized and the overlooked and the minimized and the devalued. And that's where the arbitrary side choosing of the world in today's modern era, based on limited algorithms that feed up the kind of, you know, articles we want about island. I'm telling you, they served up that article because they knew it would resonate because we're like, we're so exhausted. We just want to live on an island. And also we're so in our 40s that we get our news from the news app, not from social media. Like most people don't even. Yeah, great point. Another great point. Um, but, but, but yeah, I, I, I, I choose humanity, you know, and, and, and maybe people think that's arbitrary and short-sighted, but, um, uh, we're all God's children. Yeah.

51:49 And that we can stand for justice without having to see an image of God that is only going to lead us to disenheartened, be disenchanted and disheartened because things aren't there. Yeah. But imagine a life if we could let go of fairness, but grab hold of justice. And don't you think that for you and me, you know, policymakers have their place. Entertainers have their place. Pastors have their place. Teachers, philosophers have their place. Coaches have their place. Doctors, lawyers, police, fire. You all have their place, but justice without partnering with God is a massive presumption. And to think that we will be able to execute right relationship with one another, we are the problem.

52:48 So we can't also be the solution. We need a superhero and we need to partner with him so that he can not only change our policies, perhaps, but more importantly change our heart and only he it says he holds the the heart of the king in his hands and he wields it as he sees fit and um he holds my my heart in his hands too and there's so much mystery around that but i i agree that that's a beautiful um a beautiful picture to attain to because we pray that people can partner with god partner with god in that and see that you pray Perfect. I would love to. God, we're here having conversations about things that we don't pretend to know all the details about because we want to see you and we want to know you for who you really are. God, I pray for Judah, myself, for every person listening that if there are any cultural ideas and ideals or idols that are coming against who you are, that are trying to inform us of your character, that are not you. In the name of Jesus, I pray that we would let go of those things and we would see you for who you really are, which is a father full of love and full of justice and wanting to bring righteousness and peace and joy to all of your children. God, I pray that you would help us let go of our cultural ideals and grab hold of what you have said. God, for anybody listening who is struggling to trust you, who is struggling to trust that what you will bring about is actually good and just because they have been victims of horrific events and activities and injustice.

54:32 God, I pray that you would bring healing. And I pray that you would do a supernatural work in our hearts that we could trust you for who you really are. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.