Embracing Your Differences with Les & Leslie Parrott

0:00 Chelsea, you just melted my heart. That may be the sweetest, most romantic fantasy of married life I've ever heard. I think it sounds stupid. Like, so do I. I'm not eating my Caesar salad holding her hand. No marriage is perfect. And that's because no person is perfect. We all need a little work, and today, I'm so excited because we'll be sitting down with a couple that has been helping us work on ourselves and our marriage since 2004. Yeah, Les and Leslie Parrott have been studying and teaching the basics of good relationships for decades. And they're not only our friends, but they're also our very own marriage coaches. They have helped us work through our different personalities, different emotions, and even our different flaws. Everybody has their differences, but you have to accept it all to even get a shot at true lasting love.

0:53 Which is something we all deserve. So stick with us today on In Good Faith. you it is my privilege to introduce you first of all to our personal marriage coaches because obviously chelsea needs uh extreme amounts of insight and coaching Married in 1984, exactly 124 years ago, the parents were married. But seriously, the parents are a husband and wife team who not only share the same name, but the same passion for helping others build healthy relationships. Les is a professor of psychology at Northwest University. Leslie is a marriage and family therapist.

1:46 They're founders of the Center for Healthy Relationships on the campus of Olivet University. They have been on shows like Oprah and many, many others. We adore this couple. They've changed our life. And it is my honor to introduce for the very first time, but not the last time on In Good Faith, Les and Leslie Parrott. We love you guys. Thank you, guys. And it's not just that we've been on shows like Oprah. We've actually been on Oprah. Is that what I said? We've been on shows very similar to Oprah and Dr. Phil. It was Donna here. Similar. We're so excited to have this conversation with you today, because really when Judah and I found ourselves at the lowest point in our marriage, probably the only time that we had gotten a fight that ended in, we don't use the word divorce, but it ended in, I think this may not work out between the two of us. We made a call to this couple who are legends in our city, in the city of Seattle, and just said, hey, I don't even know if you do marriage counseling, but would you talk with us? And they graciously did.

2:46 And the advice, the perspective, the insight that they have given us has been true life to us. And so we're excited that we get to share them in good faith. Well, let me just say something about you guys. That was a long time ago that you reached out to us, many, many years ago. and you guys are one of the great examples for us in a couple that does preventive intervention. In other words, you're trying to solve problems before they become problems and that says a lot about you but I want to highlight it because it's such a great example for all of us. You don't wait until we're in crisis mode. That might have been an initial catalyst to get you to connect with us But these days, such an incredible, intentional job of solving problems before they start. Love that. It's funny you say that. I remember you were waiting for the big bomb to drop when we came and met with you for the first time. You're like, oh, here's these pastors in our city.

3:39 What's really going on? And I think we're all happy that there wasn't a big bomb. We are so happy. We're so happy. We thought it was a bomb, you know, but come to find out, oh, no, this is doable. You guys are okay. We're like, oh, thank you. Yeah. No, you should hear the other stuff that walks in your office. You guys are doing just fine. You guys are not only just okay, but your authenticity, your insight, and you just go after it. You do not leave any stone unturned. And that is really something to watch. Thank you for saying that, Leslie. And I will go on record to say on this podcast that there are a lot of people you're going to come across in this lifetime, no matter who you are and where you are listening. But if you ever get a chance to come across Leslie Parrott, you will find yourself in the presence of maybe the kindest, most empathetic, intentional, purposeful human being you'll ever meet. And her blue eyes will melt your heart and help you understand how to be a better person. Okay, Judah, now do me.

4:39 And then there's Les, who has a great pet of hair. All right, so here we go. I just, I just, I just. what I love about what you two bring to the table is this incredible balance of psychology and marriage and family therapy less studying trained as a psychologist Leslie studied and trained as a marriage and family therapist and you've brought those gifts together to have such an incredible beauty but you didn't just get an education and then stop you have continued to grow and develop and you just have so much to give it's just really incredible and it never ceases to amaze me and this is an indirect way of complimenting our dear friends that the smartest people you're going to come across in this lifetime, no matter who you are and where you are listening, are always the lifetime learners. They're always the people asking the questions. They're always people trying to learn from you. You're just curious, and in a way, it's what's made you so relevant. You continue to want to know what's going on in the world, what's happening in culture, what are the dynamics around relationships and marriage and friendship, and I thank you for that.

5:40 You don't have to do that. No one's forcing you to do that, but you have a desire to do it, And it has meant so much to Chelsea and I. Well, you guys, first of all, we do it because humbly we need it. We're always looking for the next answer to whatever we just experienced as a couple. Everybody says, how did you come up with that idea on love talk or whatever it is? Because we were trying to figure out our own communication. It was breaking down. So, yeah, you do become a lifelong learner because you want the very best. You've got this life that you've been blessed with and you want to live it to the highest levels. And so how can you not be a lifelong learner? So once you get going on the path, it doesn't stop, right? Nobody woke up this morning and go, oh, man, I think I've achieved it. You know, I don't need to know anything else. I'm good, you know. We're always in process. Well, we're excited to have this conversation with you today, first to glean from that lifelong learning that you've done, but also to get a free marriage session out of it.

6:35 Yeah, yeah, right. We set this up perfectly. You know, I'm thinking about what do we want to talk about with Lesson Leslie, really wanting to hone in on the topic of differences. You know, Jude and I enough to know we're pretty different. We took the Myers-Briggs personality test and literally every single letter on the Myers-Briggs, we are different. How do you see that differences tend to work out in relationships? Are they good? Are they bad? Are they neutral? Differences are inevitable, right? It's not a good or bad thing. It's just how it is. And it doesn't matter how much you have in common, you're still sometimes going to feel like the world's most opposite couple. Wow. Because, you know, we're in this life together and we're not just looking at the front stage of our life. We're behind the scenes. We know what's going on. And we go, oh, I didn't know you were like that. You know, we don't have as much in common as I thought we did. Well, you know, no matter what, even if you're just like in the same groove over time, what you start to perceive are the gaps, right?

7:34 Because the gaps are what gets our attention. We're just designed that way. We have that negativity bias where I feel loved in so many ways, but the one thing I'm obsessed about is the gap. You can't love me this way. I'll tell you this. When it comes to differences, over 20 years ago, we launched this company with Neil and Marilyn Warren called eHarmony. Maybe I've heard of it, yeah. Just a small little company. But it was all dedicated to finding your match, right? It was the very first matching site online, and then Match.com and others came along. But what we realized is in the science of this, it's not about being the same. Sometimes you have complementary differences and those differences. That's what makes the relationship vibrant. And so the goal is not to marry somebody that's just like you. It's to be complementary. And let's face it, we're never going to find the perfect match. We do what we can.

8:26 And for example, you know, our core values, that's a really important match. If you want to enjoy lifelong love at the core value of who you are, what you value most, maybe it's your personal faith, for example, that match is really important. Whether you like the same kind of movies or you both like guacamole, that really doesn't matter. I love guacamole, though. I know you do. Margarita. Can you identify what those core values are that are important to be the same? You know, I think it's the soul of every marriage, right? It has to do with the things that you hold sacred and what you're about. So in other words, you might have political differences, but what you do need to share are the things that give your life its meaning. Like we're about faith. We're about family. We're about commitment. Work that has meaning that we both agree on, you know, at our core. It's the mission, right?

9:22 Because we sometimes talk about, you know, a marriage mission statement, which sounds kind of corporate. But if you think of all your values in these concentric circles and they go out and out and out, you know, maybe there's five or six of them. We're talking about the very center of that. It's like the middle of the cinnamon roll. It's the best part. Right. And so you want to make sure that those are the values, you know, on family and parenting or faith or whatever it is. And sometimes if you're getting married earlier in life, you don't even know those. And so kind of the path unfolds a little bit for you. But you have a sense of it when you're starting in that relationship. And so that's what we're getting at. But here's the deal. You know, everybody says, oh, opposites attract. Well, no, opposites attract and then they attack. Because we have to have those center values in place or we just, it's very difficult to do life together.

10:15 But you're always going to feel like you're the opposite couple. And we're not talking about personality because, oh my goodness, you don't want to marry your doppelganger personality wise, right? Like you just talked about, Chelsea, one of you is an extrovert, one of you is an introvert. I wonder who's who. Yeah, Chelsea is not an extrovert. It makes me uncomfortable.

10:35 No, and that's a glorious difference. But also, there are moments where you each feel misunderstood, right? So I want to do something for all the single people out there right now. This morning, I played golf with one of my single adult friends. And we had an interesting situation come up that I think Les and Leslie can shed some incredible light on. My friend says this today. I really like this person. I think they could be the one. What should I be looking for in terms of likes, dislikes, or differences? What should he be looking for? Or the proverbial single person who's listening right now. I love that question. First of all, because he's asking the question, he's halfway home. Most people don't even ask the question. You know, I just feel it, right? It's some ambiguous thing, and I think I'm in love or whatever.

11:29 Here's the thing. It's not a universal, oh, everybody has to have these things. It's up to him. And so he's got to make that list. You know, Smokey Robinson out of Motown many, many years ago, before our time even, Judah. And thanks for that compliment in the introduction. He had this song called You Gotta Shop Around. And the whole idea was to kind of have a shopping list. And I happened to sit next to Smokey on an airplane once and I talked to him about this. It was so fun. But that idea of having a list, there's good research behind that. And what we recommend is you've got to have a list of what we call deal makers and deal breakers. Those are two separate lists. Those are must-haves and can't-stands. And so maybe it's like on your list of can't-stands is like smoking. You know, I just don't want to be with somebody that smokes. Maybe one of my must-haves.

12:22 I want somebody that likes to ride on the back of my Harley with me. Whatever it is. You know, you just got to make your list. And we've done this with, man, countless couples, especially college students. And you just see the lights coming on because all of a sudden they're realizing, oh, I kind of have my little roadmap. I have my shopping list. I know what I'm looking for. I don't have to guess. And so we always say, you should know whether this person is worth pursuing in two dates or less. like just hanging out with them for a few hours. Yeah. And so having that list of must have, can't stands, it's really a valuable thing. What it does is bring clarity. Once you have clarity, you know what you're looking for. When the treasure presents itself, you see it. You do not overlook it, right? Because you're like, oh my goodness, this is lining up. I'm going to pursue this relationship and see where it leads. Or just the opposite. I don't need to waste my time here because I know this is going nowhere.

13:14 I love how practical that is because finding the right person, relationships can feel so mysterious. It can feel so out of our reach and out of our control. And I love that simple list that it actually brings that into something that we can have a level of control over. Is that bad that I want control over relationships? No, that's a good thing. You want control over everything. I'm kidding. But you know something, Chelsea, that you've kind of identified there, that's where our happiness is found in life. our contentment is the people that have control of their lives, that have their hands on the steering wheel, they're the most content people on the planet. Imagine if you woke up every morning and you didn't know where you had to be and what you had to do until somebody told you. You didn't have any control over that. All the happiness goes out of your life, right? You want some level of control. And so this idea of having your list, and here's the next step. After you've kind of just brainstormed all these must-haves, can't stand. Now limit it to just 10 on each side. And now what you realize is you can't compromise. One, okay, maybe. Because that's the temptation.

14:22 Right. Because you're going to go, okay, well, you know, he has a gambling problem and that's one of my can't stands, but he has all these other good things. Well, no, you can't compromise once you get to that. We sometimes say if there's maybe one or two on each side, that might be a reasonable compromise, but you really got to stick with your shopping list. Okay. You just answered my question because that was going to be my question. Like, wait a minute. When the emotions get involved and I got friends, we all do that are like, well, they don't really fit the list at all, but I'm just in love with them. And you're like, wait a minute. Then there's no point in, in making the list. And this is an absolute emergency by the way. And I know you live downtown Seattle and we just heard the sirens. And by the way, that was indicative. It was metaphorical single people. This is an emergency. This is urgent. Sound the alarm. Sound the alarm, brother. So one more time. You said like compromise really only on a couple. Is that correct?

15:15 We don't want to put handcuffs on you to feel, oh, well, he doesn't do this or she doesn't do that, whatever. And so we don't want to just be so hard fast that it feels. Exactly. But dedicated because these are the things that matter to you. And no matter how gorgeous someone is, they may not have the qualities that allow your life to be anything that you would choose. Right. Here's the other thing about this list. It becomes a mirror because now you've made this list of somebody that you would love to be with. And it turns right back around to you because you want to become those things. Because once you become those, that's what attracts someone like that to you. so it also becomes a challenge to embody your list right it's so true i had a list when we were before he and i got married but i didn't have your wonderful wise advice and how to make the list and silly enough on my list was somebody who was left-handed because i had this fantasy if i'm right it's so embarrassing because i'm right-handed if i marry somebody left-handed we can sit and hold hands while we eat meals you know and we each have our free hand to eat our Oh my goodness.

16:23 And the horrible thing is we've actually never once sat and... Not one time. I'm left-handed, so she got what she wanted. Yeah, yeah. But we've never once sat and held hands while we got meals. And so I hear you saying that things on this list have to be actually important, not silly little fantasies of how we're going to eat together. You actually still need two hands to eat, unfortunately. I loved what you said, and I'd love for you to repeat it, that differences become the attraction and then they become the attack. Is that what it was? They attract and then they attack. What do we do in marriage when differences seem insurmountable or that we just can't get on the same page because these differences are just attacking us?

17:23 Yeah, there's this little kind of three-stage phase kind of progression that we go through in the early passages of our relationship. And the first is to idealize each other. We just think, oh, this is, how did I get so lucky? I can't believe it. And you wake up every morning and you dress because you think, I want him to see me in this or her to see me in this. and everything that you do, you're just obsessed with this person, right? And then your bubble gets burst a few times until finally you move into the next stage, which is the monstrosizing stage. This is where, you know, the scales fall off and what you're seeing is also the dark side. But right now that is so new to you that it's really the whole landscape. You're like, oh my goodness, you're not what I thought you were because you have this dark side. Right. So you go from idealizing and then all of a sudden there's some things that aren't adding up and then you monster size and then you start to think, well, if you've hidden this for me, what else have you? And so you just think this is the worst person on the planet now, at least for a little season or a little glimpses of that until you get to the third stage, which is to.

18:30 realize and that's just realize okay this is a fully present human being with every good thing I was drawn to and lots of things I might not have let myself see in the beginning they're human like me it's a mixture and then you can really have an authentic connection with the real person that you love right so like let's say one of your must-haves was generosity I want somebody that has a generous spirit and then you're around them long enough and you realize wow when we went out to eat He wasn't very generous with that person that served us at our table or whatever. Kind of pokes a hole in that idealizing thing. And then another thing happens and it seems like he was actually pretty selfish there or whatever. You know what I'm saying? And then that happens until you get to a place where it's like, oh, okay, he's a human being. He has a good side and a bad side like all of us. Good moments and bad moments, best self, worst self.

19:24 I mean, that's all in the mix. And you can't get to real love until you're known in both of those ways. And by the way, you can kind of cycle through that a few times, right? You kind of get to the realizing stuff and then you get a new stage and maybe become parents, for example, for the first time. And then you kind of go through that again because you had this fantasy about what she was going to be like as a mom. Well, she's not that way at all. And why isn't she giving me any attention anymore? And, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so you can kind of cycle through that again and again through the different stages and phases of married life, too. It's funny, when I was hearing you talk, at first I thought, man, it'd be great if we could just all stay in that idealized version or kind of go back to there and put those butterflies in your stomach and have something to get dressed for every morning. But I don't want somebody to love me externally. I want you to love me knowing my weaknesses. It's such a deeper level of love when I know that my husband knows the good, bad, and the ugly and still loves me. I think this is so significant.

20:20 significant. You know, lesson Leslie, what you've just explained is so indicative of who you are. You have a way of normalizing human beings and humanness for what it actually is, not what we all hope it is. I think we're in the middle right now of a culture that is obsessed with perfection in every way, shape, and form. The Bible even talks about making someone an offender because they get one word wrong, because they get one statement wrong. But you're articulating something that is uber important, and that is human beings have a good side, and they have a bad side. And everyone has it. And you're not articulating that there's this deep, dark secret that no one knows about, and you're living an alternate life. But that's been a big part of my journey with the two of you. I think both Chels and I came in in the pastor sphere thinking we are so far from perfect. Wait till Les and Leslie figure out how bad we are. I bet they're going to suck air, be shocked, and never meet with us again. And then we found your countenance like they are now, shifting into this like, welcome to life, guys. It's hard and you're not perfect and you both have bad qualities, but we can help you and it's going to be okay. And in a way, I'm hoping that even in this podcast, people are feeling that right now. They're feeling like, wait a minute, I'm not alone. I am normal.

21:42 Like everyone has struggles and pains and differences. Well, and that's the thing, Judith, because we've talked at length about this over the years, but this idea of embracing your dark side. All right. If we all have a dark side, let's become aware of it. And as you've heard me say so many times, awareness is curative. Once you become aware of it, now you can do something about it. Some people like think the goal in life is to repress or suppress their dark side. No, sometimes great creativity comes from your dark side. Sometimes incredible connection comes through vulnerability with your dark side. And so you want to understand it. And when you become aware of it, it becomes kind of this bridge to other people because it's like, oh, really? Me too. And so that vulnerability will be get vulnerability. And that leads us into something that is really the solution to all of this that we're talking about. We're talking about differences, right?

22:37 How do you cope with that? And that bridge is empathy, the capacity to put yourself in each other's shoes, see the world from each other's perspective. And man, I wish we could give that to everybody as a wedding gift, like a spray can of empathy, you know, wouldn't it be incredible? but that is the solution and i think it's the single greatest challenge we have as human beings it's the most important skill set that we can work on as human beings is to see the world through somebody else's eyes and when you have two people that are doing that in a relationship a romantic relationship here well they're the happiest people on the planet because they've created the safest place in the world it's an amazing thing that's the gift of empathy and it doesn't come by being sanctimonious. No. Oh, I don't have a dark side. No, it becomes evident when you embrace that dark side. Yeah. And actually, it's our weaknesses that connect us to people because then it draws their compassion out toward us. You know, your most admirable qualities are what might initially draw someone to you, but honestly, they don't really connect with you until it's that compassion of, okay, I see your weakness and I share it. And that is connection, right? I totally failed on this the first time picturing our relationship. And when we went from that idealized season to monstrous season, I mean, I have such a clear vivid memory for us. The first time I saw Judah on the golf course, Judah is the kindest, most generous giving man. And that is truly who he is.

24:12 but then he gets on a golf course and he is loud and angry and will throw a golf club, will yell at himself, speak negative words. And Leslie, I have to admit, I did not give the gift of compassion when I saw this weakness in this man that I thought I loved. I was mad at him and disappointed in him. And I wish I could go back and do it different. I would also like to say I have a dark side, but I think that is somewhat of a normal human reaction. How do we get over that normal human reaction of judging somebody's dark side and instead giving them compassion for it yeah oh i love that question because it's not a natural reaction when we feel shocked and offended at a behavior that's less than you know ideal um then it's like okay we have a natural human reaction i honestly don't know how anyone does it without grace and time you know because it's kind of an inside job. Sometimes it takes a playful spirit and acknowledging what you see, not pretending that you didn't see it, but holding it lightly enough that you're still conveying respect, but it's just like respect in the face of, you know, you're a mess right now.

25:27 And the playfulness that you can hold with it makes it still authentic, but not oppressive to that person. I would have told Judah that he needs to get right with the Lord. Oh, that's crazy. Billy Graham said God answered his prayers everywhere but the golf course.

25:47 That's a good one. You've got to be really delicate with humor. Yeah, humor can backfire. And by the way, humor is one of those core values, right? Like that might be one of your must-haves. I've got to have somebody that may share the same kind of sense of humor. And if you don't, you need to study each other's funny bone. You've got to get in there and figure out what is it that makes him or her laugh and realize in those times that are tough, you can sometimes use that and sometimes that'll really backfire. Yeah, and it doesn't have to be humor, by the way, but just that playfulness that says, I see you in your ridiculous temper tantrum right now, but I still love you even seeing it. Do you guys have something you can use that just kind of diffuses those moments? Thanks for asking, Les. We use this term called shut up. That's been what we've been using. I'm kidding, come on. Very special. Very unique.

26:40 When you're intimate enough to have your own shared language, that's when you know you're connected. And getting weird as well. And getting weird. Getting weird is a great connection point. so I get to work with the Seahawks and in fact a lesson I once connected on the sidelines of a Seahawks game that was a great night one of our running backs I won't say his name had fumbled the ball twice in the same half. And I remember standing next to some of the guys and one of the guys that works for the team said, you know, one more time, he'll probably get let go. He'll literally probably lose the dream of professional football if he fumbles that pigskin leather ball one more time. And then I looked over at this young man who, you know, these football players or 21, 22 years old. And I just, the urge inside of me was, I want to walk over there and go, I fumble all the time in life. Like it's okay. But I think because of the environment of competition, athletics, kind of the Western world, we oftentimes think in terms of whether pursuing a marriage or in a marriage or wanting to keep a marriage, you fumble one more time and I'm out. And obviously there are situations and circumstances where people need to protect themselves. But empathy really is this concept that says, I see you fumbled. Can I tell you my fumble story?

28:21 Can I tell you when I fumbled? Can I tell you how much I fumbled? And it's the ability just to go, we're all going to fumble the ball. And the cool thing about this relationship that we're in or considering being in is that we learn to at times laugh at our fumble, at times just go, shut up, you know, whatever. But your ability to communicate that over the years, it's probably the greatest installation that you have given our marriage. Your friendship is the greatest installation. But in terms of a tool, learning to practice empathy with each other on a daily basis has helped us celebrate differences, connect because we're different, laugh because we're different, learn because we're different, and being able to take those fumbles in stride, so to speak. Well, I love that. And by the way, that was a treasure being on the sidelines with you in that game. That was a good day. It was a great day. And that is your personality. I could see you literally going out on the field and going, hey, hey, it's okay if you fumble.

29:24 You would not be a great football coach. No, no, I would not. I would not. But here's the deal on empathy, we so often confuse it with sympathy, which is something that flows so easily from us. We sympathize. We see something in the news that breaks our heart or something happens to our friend. We sympathize. But empathy, this is so important for us to understand because that is standing back from what our heart might lead us to and being more objective about the situation. And so, as you've heard me say before, it involves both your heart and your head. You have to analyze as well as sympathize. It's like two wings of an airplane and you got to have both your head and your heart to really accurately see the world from somebody else's perspective. And when you do that for that person, it's one of the greatest gifts that they ever receive. And here's the crazy thing, man. Research shows us that most of us, the vast majority of us, think that we already have a lock on this. In other words, we all think, oh yeah, I do that.

30:23 I'm good at empathizing. I'm really good at seeing it. But what we're good at is sympathizing. And that's good. There's nothing wrong with sympathy. But that can lead down a completely different path because it still tends to be self-focused rather than other focus because it's all about what my feelings are right now. And we project our own neediness and our own feelings onto other people. And that's not empathy. So I really wanted to make that clear for anybody that's listening and thinking, oh, I got a lock on this empathy thing. Well, do you? because I'm still working on it and I've written books on it. It's a tough, tough thing to do. So when you look at Chelsea and I, because I think people can relate with this, I'm definitely more of a heart guy by nature. She's definitely more of a head person by nature. And God has used those very distinct differences, as you know. And it's true. My definition of empathy is pretty much always sympathy, now that you say that. And where Chelsea's attempt at empathy would be a little bit more analytical.

31:18 Can you dig in just for a second? because so many people are like Chelsea and I in those different extremes, more head, more heart. What would be your observations, comments, and suggestions? I love that. By the way, Chelsea is so brilliant. She really gets it. Well, it's to analyze. It's to step back and be objective in the situation. That's what you want sometimes. You want both, of course, but don't mistake one for the other. Yeah, and here's what happens. When you're real connected to your feelings, you can get flooded and overwhelmed. But when somebody is able to be more analytical, they're fully present, they're not anxious, and they can now really start to discern what it is you need in that moment. And it's such a gift. When you're in the presence of that, it's just amazing because we don't always need someone swept away with our life. We need someone who sees our life, but who's anchored and can help us move forward in it. But here's the deal. You need both because if all you do is analyze with your head and you kind of repress your heart, what you end up doing is just trying to solve problems all over the place. Right. OK, just do these three things and your whole life's going to be better. Let's go have dinner. You know, I mean, it's just like, OK, you've got another problem. Set it up. Knock it down. I mean, you've got to have both of them. And that's why is iron sharpens iron. Right. Like, for example, the two of you, you learn from each other. Right. You still have that core of who you are, but you help each other in that path.

32:42 and you guys are actually a reverse because we know that more men tend to analyze more women tend to sympathize so it just comes back to those two things like the two wings of an airplane you got to analyze and sympathize so good and i love that definition of empathy but that's also such a good example of how differences in a relationship can actually bring about a strength and that we can help each other where one is weak and the other is strong and we can become better because of it and not letting those differences just be an attack, but letting them remain an attraction. That's so good. And is it fair to say, Les and Leslie, if you just sympathize, well, then you're going to almost promote fumbling. Like, no, let's just fumble the rest of our lives. Let's all just be fumblers. But then if you analyze, it's like perfectionism and you only matter to the level that you don't fumble, right? Is that a fair kind of assessment or is that too? No, it's right on.

33:40 Yeah, I'd say that's more than fair. That is absolutely what we'd hope for. That's the greatness of differences. Because when you are empathizing, you're emptying yourself of your need to change that other person. But that doesn't mean you want anything less than the best for them. You want them to be the best version of them. So you're not just wanting their life to fumble. Yeah. And it's the kind of thing that this whole idea of failing, if all you did was like going, oh, yeah, it's OK to fumble. It's OK to fall and all that. What you end up doing is you become a victim of the disease to please, because now all you're going to do is just try to please everybody. And it's not healthy. And so that's the danger on that side. On the other side, if it's, hey, you know, you failed again. And here's the reason that you're fumbling because you're not doing these three things. And if you did those, you'd be a better person.

34:34 Well, that's too abrasive. And you become like the little dictator in the home or whatever. And so you've got to have that iron show. Both sides. Exactly. You know, because sometimes the reason we let people fumble all the time is not because we're thinking of their well-being, but it's because we don't want to risk them not loving us so we're afraid to speak truth. And that's a whole different thing. And that's the pleaser mentality. Right. Which I've never struggled with pleaser. No. That's not my struggle at all every single day of my life, every 10 minutes. Yeah, you just nailed this on the head, which is why this is also a free marriage. For everyone listening, I'm grateful that you got to listen in to our counseling session. And you can be a pleaser and I can be a little dictator. I didn't say it. I said it. But I thought it. You know, you guys have heard me use this analogy before. One of you is struggling in the water.

35:28 And the temptation is just, well, I'll just throw him out a life ring. you know, and pull them back into shore. And that's that sympathetic impulse. And every decent human being does that. But empathy is diving into the water, not just throwing out a life ring, but you dive into the water. You risk your own well-being to bring them back to shore. And that's heroic, right? We call those people heroes. And it's just as heroic when we do that in a relationship. And here's why. Because it will change you. When you put yourself in somebody else's shoes, you won't look at them the same way anymore. I often joke with Leslie, like when we're driving down I-5 or something, and maybe I do something, I'm blindsided by somebody, I'm pulling the wrong thing, and they honk or whatever. And I always say, if they knew me, they wouldn't do that. Because we have more grace for people that we, oh, I understand, we do fumble sometimes. And so that's where that grace comes from. Yeah, well, Leslie said something, and Leslie, it's like you just dropped a bomb and then moved on from it and it kind of exploded my world in the best possible way though you said that empathy is emptying yourself of needing to change the person that you're empathizing for can you expand on that a little bit and how does that work with the analogy of diving into the water with somebody because you dive into the water with them to change their circumstances so they don't right drown and maybe the analogy that's where the analogy breaks down. You're really mixing some metaphors. Yeah. Wow. She is analyzing right now.

36:56 Everything is in a master. It all makes sense to me in my heart. Yeah. Judith's going, this is the best stuff I've ever heard. No, I honestly believe that that act of emptying yourself of your need to change another person. That literally is that moment because, you know, when we get in what relationship people call chaos. There's a stage in a relationship where you move from a superficial relationship into chaos when your differences collide, right? Now we're feeling chaos. And the only way to move forward out of that chaos is into emptiness. Emptiness. It's a conscious choice to empty yourself of your need. And it's really a compulsive need, right? Because we all drive down the interstate going, man, if people would just drive like I drive, this would be a great place to drive, right? If people at this church would just behave the way I like them to behave, this would be a great church. If this person I'm married to would just be the kind of spouse that I think they should be, this would be an incredible marriage, right? We have that compulsion to have everybody do things the way we want them done. And you enter a world of grace and understanding and compassion and wisdom and health when you empty yourself of your need to change them and you just go, you're who you are. Let's celebrate that, right? Let's just accept that and see how that can kind of help me in my life too. When you embrace parts of someone that you really wouldn't have chosen initially, there's something about that act. It's almost mystical. It's a spiritual experience. And let's clarify a little bit here because we're not talking about, you know, fundamental characteristics that are, you know, like a sense of entitlement or arrogance or narcissism or abuse or any of those extremes.

38:41 Nothing like that. We're talking about the little mosquitoes of marriage that kind of just, oh, that irritates me when she does that. Why would you do that? That's the level of acceptance that we're talking about here. I just didn't want anybody listening to go, are they telling me to accept somebody that's abusive? No, no, no. That's a completely different thing. Thank you for saying that. We've got to have both of you back. And I'm doing this on the recording, so then somehow you're like, your arms are twisted and you have to. Just before we conclude, though, we do want to talk about the Better Love Assessment because it is so effective and so helpful. Yeah, well, and always on In Good Faith, we want to give our listeners a toolkit so that it's not just a great conversation, but something really practical and tangible to walk away with and make a difference. And this is amazing because we have a built-in toolkit that you two have created, which is the Better Love Assessment. Can you explain that to us and tell us how that can be a toolkit to navigating differences? Well, if you twist my arm, Chelsea, I guess I'll talk about it.

39:41 I'm pretty obsessed with this. We've been working on this for a long time and launched it a few years ago. But here it is. It's basically what would happen in your relationship if you could have a customized roadmap just for the two of you, not a generalized roadmap, but it's just for the two of you that leads to lifelong love. Well, that's what this thing is. It's called the Better Love Assessment. People can find it at betterlove.com. And the concept is easy. You answer a series of questions. It takes about 10 minutes. You each do that independently. And then it instantly generates this incredible roadmap. You know, we call it a report, but that makes it sound like you're getting graded or something. and you're not. Nobody wants that. No, you can't pass or fail this thing. But we've been talking about differences. And this is a tool to help you understand those God-given differences and to appreciate them. Not to go, hey, this is how you're hardwired and this is how you're hardwired. Now be different so you can get along. No, no, no. That's how you are. So learn this practice of empathy that we've been talking about. And each page, it's about a 10-page little report, comes with this action plan that has date nights and fun activities, discussion starters, and all that kind of stuff. And by the way, it's all upbeat. No shame, no blame. Absolutely. No guilt. It's insight. Yeah, exactly. That's self-awareness that we talked about. And for the price of a lunch or dinner, you can take this thing and go through it over the course of time.

41:08 And I will tell you this, we know from research, and this is independent research, the University at Chicago and others, people that do this that are married lower their chances of divorce by 31%. So that's pretty good, right? And then secondly, it increases your level of contentment and satisfaction by a third within the next seven days. It's a pretty powerful tool. Betterlove.com takes you about 10 minutes and you'll have this nice little roadmap that you can follow together. It's amazing. Anytime I've ever done a personality test or Enneagram or whatever, you know, the fad is at the moment. It blows my mind how I can answer questions in 10 minutes and get this report that spits back out at me who I am. But the power of being able to have that for a couple that's not just about me and what I need, but it's about us uniquely and what each of us need and how we can relate to each other better is just really powerful. I'm so glad you said that because nobody else has done this that we're aware of. We take the DNA of your two personalities and we look at it together and look at the chemistry between you, right?

42:16 And no other assessment does that. We can take like the Enneagram or whatever, and they're all cool, and they all give us good insight. But what this is doing is actually leveraging the algorithm so that you are seeing, oh, here's the dance steps for the two of us. And that's why you realize, oh, there's certain things that work in our marriage that don't work in our friend's marriage and vice versa. Now, we have big universal principles for communication and conflict management and stuff that are biblically grounded and stuff that we understand to work for all of us. But then you get into the weeds, and that's where we see these differentiations between us. I think what you have unearthed in your own incredible, effortless, kind and warm way is what the world is in desperate need of. And it is at the top of the practice of Jesus, who is our model. I want to be just like him. And the practice of empathy seen in Jesus, we need this more than we've ever needed it before. And I thank both of you for sharing your hearts. This is such an important episode to me, and I cannot wait for it to air. I am so excited to announce that you've already committed to be on the show another four times. We just can't thank you enough.

43:31 Hey, but one of the things that we do love to do for our In Good Faith listeners is to end in a prayer. You know, sometimes connecting with God can seem distant and far away, just praying over people. I know my mom prayed over me and it just mattered. Would either of you be open to or want to pray over our listeners just in the things that we've talked about? Yeah. Sure. That would be an honor. Let's do that. Father, your presence is everywhere. And I ask that you would just make us fully aware of that. Help us to experience your love and grace, most importantly, in our connections with the people we love the most. Give us wisdom. Give us patience. Guide us each step of the way. Thank you for the gift of marriage, of love, of relationships, and fill us with your capacity to love one another wisely and well. Amen. Amen. This has been a presentation of OBB Sound, SB Projects, and Cadence 13. Executive produced by Chelsea Smith, Judah Smith, Michael D. Ratner, Scott Ratner, Elias Tanner, Scooter Braun, Scott Manson, James Shin, and Chris Corcoran.

44:41 Produced by Grace Delia, Caitlin Plummer, and Eve Bishop of OBB Sound, and Kyle Venuya of SB Projects. Produced by Lauren LaGrasso and Serena Regan of Cadence 13. Edited, mixed, and mastered by Daniel Chavez Crook. With editing support from Caitlin Plummer and Eve Bishop. Original composition by Colin Gilliard. Production support from Kristen Crosby and Dylan Martyr. OBB Sound is an OBB Media Company. Cadence 13 is an Odyssey Company.