How To Combat Imposter Syndrome and live an integrated life

1:54 It's like, I don't know if I belong here. Which is so amazing to me because you've been invited there. You're with the players so often. They seek out your counsel and your advice outside of that locker room. You have a place there. You're not just there as some random fan who got like a free ticket to the locker room. But yet you- Well, I'm feeling better the more you say that. I appreciate that. But I can picture you in there not knowing what to do with your hands. like standing in a corner somewhere, just that feeling of like, oh my gosh. But yeah, I think that is so much about imposter syndrome that so often we feel that way when we have been invited into a space, but we feel like, who am I to be here? Who am I to be in this locker room? Who am I to be given this presentation in my job? Who am I to be raising these children? Who am I to be married to this man who loves me and receiving so much love? We so often ask ourselves all those who am I questions. So today we're going to talk about this imposter syndrome. And before we get into it, I just want to read off a quick definition so that we're all on the same page for what imposter syndrome is.

2:52 It's also called perceived fraudulence, which involves feelings of self-doubt, personal incompetence that persists despite our education, our experience, or even our accomplishments. But here's what I find so interesting about imposter syndrome is that to counter these feelings, we end up working harder and holding ourselves to even higher standards than the people around us. So we're going to get into it today and have a great conversation around imposter syndrome. My love, do you remember the first time you heard the term imposter syndrome? You're going to laugh because it was fairly recently. And it was you and I were at a meal with these two incredible college students. And this young man who was very accomplished was talking about showing up at this elite school.

3:52 And he said, and I felt like I was experiencing imposter syndrome. And when he said that, all of a sudden a flood of memories came to me, which is probably similar to you. It led you to the Seahawks locker room. But those memories really led me to moments when you and I were in our early days as youth pastors and we were pastoring teenagers and we didn't have any kids of our own. And we had parents coming to us and asking us for advice. And even though we had been set into this role and people who were really responsible thought that we could do it, I just remember having so many moments and feelings of, I don't think I can do this. What qualifies me to talk to teenagers? And so when this young man said imposter syndrome, it just brought this flood of recognition of, oh, I know what that's like. I recognize that feeling. Yeah. And I remember, it's so funny, the memories come back so specific, sitting in homes with parents who wanted our advice or our perspective on their teenage kids. In my mind, I was thinking, I think I was a teenager just a few weeks ago. I remember thinking that's how I overcame the moment of like, I don't know what I'm saying, but you know what? Actually, I'll just tell them what it felt like to be a teenager. I'll be honest. I didn't know what it was. I just felt like, I don't think I'm qualified for this. I can't believe they're looking at me and they really want my perspective. I feel like I'm about to make this up. When I look back on those days, I remember feeling so alone in those feelings, looking at everybody around us, feeling that I'm sure they feel like they belong.

5:22 I'm sure they feel qualified. I'm sure everybody else feels like they belong here and I'm the only fraud in the room. And so hearing this language, it is incredible, the power of language, the power of identifying something, how that can just give us handles and peace and maybe not feel like we're so alone in our feelings and our musings and our feelings of fraudulence. Yeah, and I think that that's exactly what I would want you, the listener, to hear is last night I was watching a television show and there's this really important scene where she stops and she tells her coworker, listen to me, everyone is scared. You hear me? Everyone. And it's a scene where the stakes are high and it's this company and everyone's scared. And I thought, actually, that's far more true than it's not. there's elements in all of us that are like, what am I doing in this room? Can I really pull this off? What am I going to say when I'm expected to say something? Do they actually know my background?

6:21 And I think imposter syndrome, in my opinion, is this feeling like, okay, I've got to keep up appearances. I've got to play my role, play my part. When in reality, I think what we're already suggesting is like, man, if you'll just embrace that you're scared, like the rest of us, you can truly be yourself. Because the problem with play acting and playing a part is it's hard to be sustainable and you end up exhausted, fatigued, overwhelmed, and really not your best. Yeah. And if we feel like we're just playing a part that we don't really belong here, don't you feel like we'll end up not being true to ourselves and not being who we really are? But I agree that this is so much more common than any of us get credit for, because we don't tend to talk about it. You haven't stood at the Seattle Seahawks and said, Hey guys, I just want to let you know that I don't feel like I belong here and I feel very nervous and intimidated right now. Because I would do.

7:14 And in those days of the youth pastor. Maybe I should. I didn't stand up and say, but we're standing up and saying right now and we're talking about it because I feel like one of the biggest ways that we can combat imposter syndrome is to first just admit how common it is. That it is something that all of us tend to feel at one point or another in our lives. I wonder if the reason this is so common is because we all know our own weaknesses. We all know our own shortcomings. We all know our crazy thoughts. We all know our bad habits. We all know our own tendencies. And I feel like so often when we look at other people, we just see their strengths. When I look at you, I just see how amazing you are. I see how gifted you are. I see how talented you are. Actually, babe, it's so surprising to me that you're nervous, even in the Seahawks locker room, because I just see you as confident wherever you go. But because we all know our own weaknesses so well, and I think even beyond knowing our own weaknesses, we dwell on them so much and so often.

8:17 That when we walk into a space where we're supposed to present strength, where we're supposed to present like we have it all together, that we just feel like a fraud in that space. Yeah, I think if we're really honest, there's probably three layers of the imposter syndrome that we're talking about. There is a private layer, a personal layer, and then there's a professional layer. Each one of those layers are very unique in their symptom. They're very unique in how they appear and how they show up. I think we all probably understand that inner voice in your head. That's the private layer of that voice that's telling you you don't belong. That's what I understand probably the most. And the reason for that is actually privilege. As a white male, I see myself a lot in movies, commercials, entertainment, marketing, boardrooms, locker rooms. I'm in a lot of places. And so you are able to tell yourself professionally or even personally like, oh, I must belong here.

9:15 I can't imagine what it's like if you as a human being maybe don't see yourself as much as I do in billboards and commercials and media. In everything. It's interesting you say that because as I was digging into this, imposter syndrome was actually coined by two female psychologists in the 70s, 1978, the year you and I were born. which I can't believe it took this long to hear this phrase, but that it was women psychologists in the seventies. I could imagine there weren't a lot of females in their field that they had to look up to. And I'm sure they were feeling some kind of way and got around it and had the conversation of, okay, this is something we're feeling. We need to name it. And so they coined imposter syndrome. But as the syndrome progressed and people continue to do research, it's actually not a syndrome on a true psychological form, but we just call it a syndrome.

10:07 It's interesting that more women and people of color note feelings more often of feeling imposter syndrome. And I think that is exactly what you just mentioned. And when I look back to my youth pastor days, I think your mom was a woman in ministry. She was a pastor, but 99% of the people I saw in my field were men. And so I think back to those feelings of, I don't know if I belong here. There wasn't anybody who I saw on a consistent basis that could tell me and inform me you belong. It's also curious to me that your area where you most related to imposter syndrome was where you were the minority, which for you as a white man, that doesn't happen very often. Even while you were just talking, I was thinking about that. And to me, it adds so much value and so much courage to men and women all over the world who don't have the upper hand, don't have the privilege of seeing themselves everywhere, and yet find the fortitude and the strength to be in spaces and places where everything around them says they don't belong. And obviously the great late number 42, Jackie Robinson, I think about him and can only imagine what it must have been like to break the barrier in baseball.

11:34 I feel very unfamiliar with that level of courage and fortitude and inward strength, but I can only project what it must take on a very private level, that self-talk and belief, which for you and I, apart from our creator and designer, I just don't know how people find that level of strength. Yeah. Well, I can't help but think of that phrase, seeing is believing, that once we see something, we believe it. And for people who are pioneers in their field to do something that hasn't been seen before, that power of that belief, or I was even thinking about Black Panther when that came out a few years ago now, to be able to see a black superhero and just what that did and the shaping of minds, not just of people our age, but also of children and a whole generation to be able to see a superhero who looks like me, the power of seeing to believe.

12:30 And I just- So important. It's my representation really is so important. Absolutely essential and important because the images we see send messages and signals to our soul. That's me. I see me there. I can do it. Yep. I can do this. And for us to be able to have that self-belief that I can do this, I can do something hard, I can do something new, it takes courage. and whether it's being a superhero or being a psychologist or being a pastor or being a mom, it's hard. It's hard. And especially when we're fighting this imposter syndrome and we're so aware of our own weaknesses and we're so aware of our own shortcomings. And then when we see those weaknesses and shortcomings, it's so easy for us to tell ourselves an inner dialogue that is so negative. And we can spend our days in the locker room telling yourself, I don't belong here.

13:24 What am I doing here? tell ourselves in the boardroom, I can't believe I'm going to get this presentation. What if nobody wants to listen to me? They've never heard a woman before. Or parenting, raising our kids. I don't know how to do this. I've never done this before. I've never done this before. My mom looked like she had everything together and I don't have a clue what I'm doing here. And that inner dialogue we give ourselves when it's negative can be so powerful in our trajectory, in our courage, in our faith and belief in ourselves and what we actually think we can do. Absolutely. And I think in a lot of ways that leads us to further discussion today on what are some of the things we can do to combat imposter syndrome? What are some of the practices that we can employ? Maybe some of the greats who have broken barriers all over the world. What are some of the things that maybe they have done? And we're not going to present that here, but that hopefully is provocative enough for you, the listener, to go, man, I'm going to go find out some of the keys.

14:22 Yeah, because as we read in our research, the thing that we are going towards, what our human nature tries to dictate we do when we find ourselves in imposter syndrome is to work harder, is to try harder, is to set ourselves up for higher standards. And we better work harder and we better try harder. And look where that is getting our culture and society just working harder, trying harder. Well, it's fatigue at the most profound level. And I think imposter syndrome, if we really distill it down, might be one of the sources, one of the primary reasons for which we find ourselves as literally a fatigued culture. I think in our line of work, we would both admit that a spiritual, mental, emotional fatigue and anxiety and fear of the future and worry of what might come are, in our estimation, at an all-time high. Yeah, or one of the things that has always baffled me is untaken vacation.

15:19 People in our culture, especially in America, I know the American stats more than worldwide stats, but around the world who have paid vacation time every year that don't take it. It's like a badge of honor in our culture in the Western world. That absolutely blows my mind that you would get paid to go on vacation or to go sit at your home and do nothing, read a book and watch Netflix, do whatever you want to do, whatever you want to do. And yet people all over our country are willingly choosing not to take vacation, but to keep working and to keep working and to keep grinding and to keep going. And that's always been a mystery to me until this imposter syndrome conversation, because I realized, oh, people feel like I have something to prove. I have to prove that I belong here. And so I'm going to keep working and keep going, even though I'm getting paid to be on vacation. I'm going to keep going. Yeah, I think in some cases we actually know that it is because we've had conversations with friends and people that we're trying to encourage and help and they've said as much. I just feel like I have to be twice as good, three times as good, four times as good if I'm going to keep the job, if I'm going to hold the position, if I'm going to be promoted. And so in some cases we know actually categorically this is true. So tough to say in people we don't know and people maybe we see on platforms all over the world, but it sure seems only natural and normal that this would be the outcome of an imposter syndrome.

16:41 Yeah. When I think back to our youth pastor days, which I keep referencing our youth pastor days for me in the locker room for you, is I keep referencing to feeling imposter syndrome because that's the season of my life that I really dealt with this the most. It's probably also the season that I worked the hardest, if I'm really being honest. There were two youth services on Wednesday nights, two youth services on Thursday nights, young professionals on Saturday nights, leaders meetings on Tuesday nights, plus working our normal nine to five jobs every day in the office to prepare for all of these things. And looking back, I just wonder, was I working so hard? Was I doing all of these things? I think they were good and people's lives were changed and there was definitely a benefit to them. But was there something on the inside of me that I was proving something to myself that I was worthy, that I belonged, that I could really do this job. Yeah, I think you're onto something.

17:33 so what can we do what can we do to combat imposter syndrome for our toolkit to solve imposter syndrome we have the two eyes the toolkit the toolkit we have two eyes to combat imposter syndrome. So we know if you feel like an imposter, you have the two I's to go to. Here we have it. And the first is, we mentioned it briefly in a negative sense, but here it is in a positive sense. And that is our internal dialogue. The things that we say to ourself, we need to change our internal dialogue from one of negative to one of positive. Yeah. And I think for me, imposter syndrome can be compounded if I'm simply just trying to tell myself what I think I need to hear to get done what's in front of me. That feels a little bit disingenuine.

18:41 And the inner dialogue for you and for me is anchored to our worldview and that we believe in providence. We believe in sovereignty. In other words, we believe there's a sovereign at hand here. We believe there's a God. We believe that he's designed us, our lips, hips, and fingertips. He's put us together and that he made us for a reason. For instance, one of the ways I've survived 2019, 2020, 2021 is telling myself, you and I together, hey, we were made for this. the designer, the creator, the God of the whole earth put us on earth for 2019, 2020, 2021. If we weren't supposed to be here, we wouldn't be here. In other words, we have inner workings and wiring that were prepared for this time in world history. And that gives me a sense of like, okay, I have what I need by God to live today and to be who we're supposed to be. And so that to me is transcendent. It's very true. It's transcendent truth by nature. So it actually transcends circumstance, situation, aches, pains, problems, insecurities, views, people's opinions, people's review of our podcast, you know, whatever it is that leads to imposter syndrome. The inner dialogue we tell ourselves is really anchored to this idea of sovereignty and progress. And I love that we were made for this. We were made for this. I was made for this. I was made for this. I was made for this. And I've told myself so often, especially going back to those youth pastor days, that if God wanted me to be anything different, he could have made me something different. So first of all, the fact that I'm a woman, God needed a woman to be there, to be here, to be me. That's right.

20:20 The fact that I'm an introvert, God needed a person who is an introvert, a little bit quieter, a little bit more of a listener, a little bit more of a deep thinker. Now I'm giving myself compliments. This is a great way to do your inner dialogue. But recognizing God made me for this. I was made for this. And if God wanted anybody else to be here, he would have made me somebody else. He could have made something different on the inside of me. And of course, for you and I, this leads to this verse in scripture that comes from Psalm 139, which was written by King David, who was a man who I'm sure felt imposter syndrome. He grew up as a shepherd, which in antiquity and these days was the lowliest form of an occupation. He was the youngest son of 10 brothers, which birth order mattered in this era. So he was the youngest son, a shepherd, which was a disgraceful occupation in so many ways. And he ended up being the king over the whole nation.

21:15 And I'm sure he dealt with imposter syndrome. It's so easy for us to look back. I'm sure he didn't call it that, but yes. I'm sure it's so easy for us to look back on people in history and just think of them as heroic and not realize that they had the same human emotions that you and I have. But I'm sure he felt those emotions. And so when he penned the words of this poem that's now recorded in the Bible in Psalm 139, he says to God, he's basically saying, you knew me when I was in my mother's womb. You formed me all of the days you had written for me. And I think that's just David changing his inner dialogue so he didn't have to fight this imposter syndrome. Yeah, go. Hey, if you get a chance, download the Bible app. They are not our sponsor. This is really coming out of my heart. Download the Bible app, even if you're not a Bible person. and check out Psalms 139. If you want like a little bit of a guide on how to change your inner dialogue, that's what Chelsea and I mean when we say sovereignty.

22:07 It's like, I was fearfully and wonderfully made. You knit me together. You knew my joints, my ligaments, and you put me together. And I'm not an accident. I'm here on purpose and with a purpose. And that absolutely transforms, if we're honest, probably our everyday life. Yeah, and to really incorporate that into our inner dialogues, that whoever I am, whatever I perceive my strengths to be and my weaknesses, that I am who God made me to be. And I was made for this. We were made for this. Absolutely.

22:39 I think what's so important in our inner dialogue is to not just focus on our weaknesses and our shortcomings all the time. I know often when I feel insecure, when I feel like a fraud, I can so easily just have that record that I replay in my head of, I don't have anything to say. What am I doing here? Nobody likes me. And we need to really make sure that we are changing that record out. Yeah. Well, how do you change that record out? I mean, easier said than done. Yeah. And I think that goes back to telling ourselves I was made for this. I can do this. I have a creator. I have a purpose. I am who I'm supposed to be. I am where I am supposed to be. and every time that negative record starts to play, that bad song starts to play.

23:35 That negative podcast in our head. That negative podcast in our head that we really can transform it around. And I think that's why I loved your suggestion of getting the Bible app and actually downloading that and memorizing a few lines of that even and just saying no and disciplining our thoughts, changing our minds and our mindset to honestly literally tell ourselves that. I think the other thing is so important is that we have friends who will agree with a positive inner dialogue instead of friends who will just reinforce a negative dialogue. Yeah, I was going to say that. And I think both suggestions here obviously can be somewhat discouraging to people, meaning like, I don't know if I have the strength to tell myself. And then my suggestion was going to be like, well, then you got to surround yourself with people who will tell you when you can't tell yourself. Yeah, it's so good. And that's also comes with a challenge. The scripture says, you know, to have friends, you got to show yourself friendly, you know, and that's one of the most basic social cues of all time. But honestly, I can count even recently so many days where I feel like my own fears, my own shortcomings and my own weaknesses, the thing that made up for those so that I could have a fulfilling day was actually friends willing to text, willing to voice memo, willing to call FaceTime and say, bro, you've changed my life.

24:50 Thank you so much. There's no one like you and what you do. And this is what you do. And this is who you are. and you're kind of reminded like, okay, I don't think all of these friends would lie to me. And I say all these friends, it's not like it's 1400 people. It's more like four, but the difference that can make is extraordinary. Yeah. I think about how did I overcome that imposter syndrome that I felt in our youth pastor days. And I know a big part of it for me was being honest with you and saying, babe, I don't feel like I belong here. I don't feel like I have anything to offer, anything to give and how much that vulnerability on my part led you speaking life to me and reminding me who I was and telling me those things that I needed to tell myself, but I just couldn't. I didn't have that inner dialogue changed. And the importance of hearing that from somebody who knows you and who can see you and who can tell you the truth and change your inner dialogue is so powerful. So powerful.

25:41 And I think essential to the human experience. Without it, I think so much of our journey falls flat. Yeah. It is impossible for us to change our inner dialogue on our own. On our own. We need other people. If you think about how many... We're community beings. Yeah. How many people have stories of one comment that one teacher made that gave them life and encouragement, just propelled them to do things that they never thought they could do? And I didn't expect to do this, but I'm going to be bold enough to say, one of the reasons we build community the way we do is to help people with this. And for the community that we lead called Church Home, We even have a feature on our app for people who feel like maybe they don't have any friends to encourage them. It's called Pastor Chat. And it's just that simple. It's literally pastors standing by willing to chat. And they don't just want to talk about the weather. They want to encourage. We've got incredible team members who want to make themselves available to encourage brand new people on the application.

26:41 So I don't want to be that guy. But I think both Chelsea and I are very passionate about this. This is not just a nice podcast episode. For us, this is like, no, please, we want to help. And this is a way we can help you listening right now. You can download Church Home app and you go to the pastor chat feature. It's totally free. Totally free, by the way. It's just people available to encourage you and remind you who you are. Yeah, because we all need that. And that's our first eye for our toolkit is inner dialogue. The second is equally powerful, I believe, and that is an integrated life. living an integrated life. Now, when we were kids, I'll give the spoiler. When we were kids, we would have been told this is a life of integrity. But what does integrity mean? You know, the root word of integrated is integer, which is a math term. I probably lost Judah right there. Yeah, I just checked out. But an integer is a whole number. It's a number that is complete and whole in and of itself. And what we mean by an integrated life is that who you are at your job is who you are with your family. And who you are with your family is who you are on the golf course or who you are when you're driving. Oh, I can get so angry when I drive. But if we live an integrated life, a life that is whole, a life that is a life of integrity, then we actually aren't fraudulent when we show up to say something or be something or do something.

28:07 Yeah, I think what we're talking about in a lot of ways is outing ourselves. I recently had an experience with a friend of mine who's done a lot of work and a lot of therapy and in understanding himself. And I'm constantly inspired by him. And we were in a setting with a bunch of people kind of in like a green room setting. And I said, hey, how you doing? Just quietly, privately. And he said, I feel really raw right now. I feel really vulnerable. I feel unsafe. Could you pray for me? and I did pray, but I was so impacted by him outing himself. Talking about an integrated life. His willingness in that moment to go, to honestly say what I don't know any of my other friends would say. And I think a lot of that is because we don't know we can. It's not because my other friends are like, you know, secretly keeping these secondary lives away from all of us and are living these duplistic existence.

29:02 No, it's just that we don't know. Can we be so vulnerable? Can we be so honest? And I think that's what we say. We say integrated life. What we're not saying is, hey, be better in every area. No, we're actually saying be more honest in every area. Yeah, I can't help but think of if you're nervous giving a presentation at work and if you could pull one coworker aside, just say, hey, I'm feeling a little nervous about this or I'm feeling a little bit like a fraud. Can you give me some support? Yep. You will get that support and that courage and that life that you need. And that's so integrated because you're actually willing to bring your fear along with you, your nervousness, your feelings of inadequacy, that you aren't trying to shove those in a corner and leave them behind and just present this front of fake courage. And you learn a lot about your friends, by the way. If you have a friend that's like, oh, bro, are you kidding me? You're nervous?

29:55 How stupid is that, bro? You should never be nervous. It's so dumb. is all of a sudden you realize like, whoa, I need to be careful with this friend. This is maybe not a friend that I thought understands me or is willing to be here with me. And that's where friends can be seasonal as well. And now we're talking about very specific things, but you learn a lot about your friends too when you're that vulnerable and that integrated. Yeah, I mean, I'm such a biased wife, but I will say, I mean, you're my favorite preacher that I ever get to hear. I think you're awesome. But one of the things that I think makes you so great is your willingness to out yourself even on stage while you're preaching. Like you've said often, yeah, I fight with anger. I have a gift of passion. Or you've told the story of our 20th wedding anniversary and you got so mad at me, you threw my Kindle across the room. Shattered the Kindle. Shattered my Kindle. I don't hate reading that much. I love my Kindle. But your willingness to actually bring your whole self, even to a place that has traditionally been considered, quote unquote, holy or that you have to be perfect to stand on a stage and preach.

30:55 your willingness to bring your whole self there, I think is just so incredible. Well, it's also a lot less exhausting, you know, and that's just the facts. It's just a lot less exhausting. And that's a real felt need we want to speak to too. And that is that you right now listening, do you feel fatigued? Do you feel exhausted? Do you feel overwhelmed? Do you feel like you got to play a role and a part, you know, when you're with your mom, play a role and a part when you're with your coworkers, play a role and a part when you're with your kids, play a role and apart when you're with your neighbor, play a role in a part when you're with, you know, it's just hard to keep track of the seven characters you're supposed to be. And that really is ingredients for an exhausted, fatigued life. Yeah. But if you could bring all of those characters together and be the same person with your mom as you are with your coworkers. Think of it. That's sustainable. Yeah. That's sustainable. That's who God made you to be.

31:47 Yeah. And then we don't have to just work harder to be fatigued and we can live this integrated whole life. And so we don't have to feel like a fraud wherever we are. Hey, on this note, can you pray for people? I was going to ask you to pray. Oh, okay. Because I just felt like you were going to have a better prayer than me today. Oh, I mean, I usually do. I would love to pray. Anything else you want to say before we close this out in prayer? We're all in this together, quite literally. Actually, it's probably the truest thing we've said the whole time. We're just, we're in this together and we are all scared. You are not alone. You are not the only one. Nothing could be further from the truth. as we pray this prayer over you. Maybe allow yourself, if you can, close your eyes and just kind of soak in this moment and recognize that you're a miracle and who you are is who God made you to be. Yeah, let's pray. Jesus, I know that you see every person who is listening right now, that you know the exact way that you made them.

32:43 You know the way that you knit them together, informed them. You know the exact fears that we are facing. You know all of the ways that we have felt like an imposter, all the thoughts that came up during this conversation, that you see every one of them and that you know every one of them. And Jesus, right now, I ask that your peace and your power would come and begin to change our inner dialogue. I pray that you would give each one of us a verse, a phrase, a saying that we could have, that we could hold onto to begin to change the way that we speak to ourselves. Lord, I thank you that you are with us and you're giving us direction and guiding and discernment. If there's any person who needs to maybe change some friendships, change the way that people talk to us, that you would lead us and guide us and direct us in that way. Lord, I thank you that you are present and that you are with us. You never leave us and you never forsake us. Jesus, I pray right now courage for every one of my fellow listeners, my fellow humanity who are listening right now.

33:40 I pray for that courage and that boldness and that strength to be vulnerable, to be integrated and to live this life of courage and faith and strength so that we would know we are who you made us to be, who you called us to be, and we belong where you have placed us. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. This has been a presentation of OBB Sound, SB Projects, and Cadence 13. Executive produced by Chelsea Smith, Judah Smith, Michael D. Ratner, Scott Ratner, Elias Tanner, Scooter Braun, Scott Manson, James Shin, and Chris Corcoran. Produced by Grace Delia. Co-produced by Kyle Venuia of SB Projects. Produced by Lauren LaGrasso and Serena Reagan of Cadence 13. Edited, mixed, and mastered by Adam Macias Original composition by Colin Gilliard Production support from Rachel Cruz OBB Sound is an OBB Media Company Cadence 13 is an Odyssey Company