How To Make Friends

0:02 Here we go. You ready? Yeah. Okay, we're going to play a guessing game. We are? I make a question you get to guess. It's my favorite kind of guessing game where I don't have to guess. We're going to play it. You are going to play a guessing game. Okay, you are going to play a guessing game. In 2023, which is this year, the Surgeon General put out a warning about a health concern that he had. Okay. What do you think it is? Well, I know the answer to this one. I actually do. Oh, okay. Loneliness. How do you know the answer to that? You cheater. I did not cheat. I actually haven't even looked at your notes. True story, ladies and gentlemen. But I think, did I end up having a conversation with you about it or somebody? But yeah, it's a study on loneliness. It was compelling. Right? Yeah, I don't remember anything other than that. Okay, here is part of this study.

0:56 Wait, ask me more questions so I can be right. Okay, but you're going to get, this sounds obvious you're going to get this one too. which is more detrimental to your health? Cigarettes or loneliness. God dang it. Whoa, almost cussed here on In Good Faith. Loneliness. You're right. It's worse than cigs. It's crazy how you knew that. The Marlboro man can live longer than the lonely man. It's crazy. Oh, now there's a take. It just came to me. By the way, our episode today talking about loneliness, but more of the, we're talking about it. We have a guest. Oh, oh shoot. stole my line again okay i'm gonna keep a tally of how often you steal my lines today so far we're on two he's sleeping right now i know okay we do have a guest today this is louie our puppy i don't know if we can see him we're gonna see how long he's gonna last today yeah right now he's sleeping which actually louie merle smith louie merle smith you gave him the middle name merle merle after a horse i did equine therapy with in nashville it was amazing equine therapy Did I say equine?

1:57 Yeah. Is it water? Oh, it's equine. Equine. I'm pretty sure. It's the Aquaman therapy I did with the horse. I'm pretty sure it's E-Q-U-I. Somebody can fact check. You know, I'm sure. My voice is so tired today. I'm sorry. It's kind of sexy. Really? Yeah, a little sultry. Yes. I like it. Yes. So we're talking about, obviously I started talking about loneliness and it is an epidemic, a pandemic. I mean, not like COVID was, but it is drastically affecting the physical health in our country, our mental health, our well-being, particularly people who are over 65, over 25% of them live in isolation. So we're going to get into it and talk about friendship. We are going to do our part to help the Surgeon General combat loneliness. Don't you feel like such a good citizen? I do. I feel like an accomplished citizen. We are doing what the Surgeon General wants us to do. So obviously, the way to combat loneliness is with friends.

2:54 Although since we have our special guest here, I do want to add a caveat that dogs really do help with loneliness. Guys, if you need a takeaway already from this episode, get a little malty poo, particularly from Oklahoma. I highly suggest the ones from Oklahoma. They're good. It actually has blown my mind. A couple of the start of the summer, like the kids were started school, but you were still in summer mode. So you were gone for the first couple of weekends when the kids started school, which I found myself a little bit lonely when you were gone. I could. No, no, no. I'm not. I mean, thank you for being sorry. I'm not trying to make you feel bad. We agreed in it together. But I could not believe how helpful this little guy was. Little Louie, like cuddling. And just it kind of blew my mind, actually, how much companionship and comfort a dog can bring if you're feeling lonely. And so we'd like to thank our sponsor, Dogs of America.

3:47 And if you go to dogsamerica.com, you can find a puppy perfect for you. I'm kidding. I don't know if that's a website it might be. Hey, everybody. I'm super excited about one of our sponsors, AG1. And the reason for that is it covers a lot of nutrient gaps. And on top of that, it supports my mental and physical health. I love the fact that it replaces my multivitamin and my supplements for energy and focus. So here's what we're going to do. For our listeners, get a free one-year supply of vitamin D3K2 and a five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase at drinkag1.com backslash ingoodfaith. That's drinkag1.com backslash ingoodfaith.

4:32 So obviously, I'm really serious. Dogs are a great cure for loneliness. But the other cure for loneliness is obviously friendships and relationships and other human beings. Yeah. Other humans. But you know what's so great about dogs? It's not. This episode is going off the rails early. You know what's so great about dogs? What? Is they're just there for you whenever you need them. They just want you to be happy. They want to make you happy. We were anti-dog people for the longest time. We really were. But then after getting this guy, I do totally understand how they say a dog is a man's best friend. I don't know why they say a man's best friend, not human. Well, don't they mean like mankind? Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure. Not males. Yeah, that would be short-sighted and limited. Right. Profoundly. Profoundly short-sighted and limited. But friendships with people are different than friendships with dogs. Because you know what?

5:24 People talk back. People have emotions. People, it's life with relationships and people is so. It's life worth living. It is. It is a life worth living. but it also can be challenging. And I think there is a reason, there has to be a reason that so many people are lonely in our world today. Obviously, we don't have a lot of the research about that, but I think you and I are pretty smart people. Why do you think there's so much loneliness in our world today? Well, I do wonder if it's the psychoanalysis and the excessive analysis that we do with one another because of media and because of social media. I don't want to be a broken record, everybody i mean this doing this podcast is social media social media so let's just put that in perspective we are the ultimate hypocrites but um yeah i mean i don't know it goes back to to i think we're very self-aware self-conscious sometimes self-involved i think uh media is seemingly prone to that i think we're uh this term like i'm in my head it's it's like we're all in our head i think there's a book that's come out called getting out of your head you know because I think we're all just like, oh, man, maybe that's not the right thing or say the right thing or do the right thing or post the right thing.

6:37 And I think as a result, it makes us all feel like we're on a bit of an island. And I think one of the phenomenons that's interesting to me in the coffees and lunches and breakfasts that I have with with different guys going in different chapters and seasons of their life is that many of them are living in full homes. you know whether it's uh brothers and sisters or or moms and dads or a husband or wife or kids and and it's like oh my word um you can be in a full house and still feel very very alone that's interesting yeah that's such a good point and if you would have told me in 2000 when we were been married for a year that there would be these devices that you could connect with anybody around the world all and whenever you wanted to yeah and that you could see what was happening in your friends' lives every day. And you know, if you would have tried to describe to me everything that social media and our phones and everything that has changed since then in the last 20 some years. But if you would have told me that would have resulted to more loneliness, I literally don't think I would have believed you. I would have said something is wrong. Of course, if we're more connected, if we're seeing more people, of course, we're going to be less lonely. Of course, it's going to be easier to make friends. Like I, it's really shocking to me. I think it's a social exhaustion too. I think much like the proverbial high school lunchroom, obviously I'm speaking from a Western world concept here, so bear with me. But in this country, the proverbial, so to speak, high school lunchroom is a very tense place. It's a very self-aware, insecure, because everyone is kind of posturing and trying to act right and be cool and be at a certain table and whatever. And I think we all end up going to our respective spaces that we call home exhausted. And then that exhaustion, I think, leads to a level of isolation. And then you're sitting there by yourself in your room and you're like, am I really being myself? Can I be myself? Can I bring my full self to my friendships, relationships, work, environment? And that's over self-analysis, again, I think has produced a deep sense of loneliness.

8:47 Okay. So I was talking to our daughter, Grace, the other day, who's 14, freshman in high school. Talk about high school cafeteria lunchroom. Freshman is the epitome of that. And I mean, she has an older brother at her school with her, which is a pretty good feeling. It makes us feel good. He's big too. Yeah, he's big. And such a sweet, I mean, can I say he's like a teddy bear? because he really is but six foot five teddy bear so i was grace and i were talking in the day and i was asking her about her friendships at school like hey how are your friendships going what are you and she started off the year playing volleyball which was so fun you know this and i'm like the two girls who i thought i want her to be friends with those two girls are the two girls that she has gravitated towards being friends friends with which feels like such an accomplishment as a parent when you're when your teenagers do what you want them to do without you having to tell them to do it yeah we should do a whole episode on that how to get your teenagers to do what you want to do without you having to tell them oh my gosh that if anybody could make those three rules that would be a bestseller so i was asking her you know what why did why did you choose these girls for your friends what are you liking about them she goes well i feel like they're just really themselves it's interesting you know explain that to me trying to draw things out of a teenage girl although grace loves to talk which is so fun so fun but she was saying you know there are other people who, when I talk to you, I get the feeling that they're not giving me their real opinions.

10:12 They're just kind of trying to figure out what I want to hear and what I'm going to agree with. And she said, I just feel like I can't really be good friends with those people because I'm not really getting to know who they actually are. So first of all, proud mom moment, um, for grace, I know I forgot to tell you, um, for grace to see that and recognize that and know that she wants friendships with people who are genuinely themselves. But it made me wonder if part of the loneliness that we are feeling in the world is that even though we're around people all the time, even though people see more of our lives probably than they've ever seen. And here we are at our table in our kitchen. I mean, this is people in our lives, but I don't know if we let people in to see the real version of who we actually are. And that's got to feel so lonely. Totally. If nobody actually sees you and knows you, and if you feel like you have to put on a performance and be something that you aren't to keep other people happy or to try to impress people or try to make friends or keep friends, that's not only exhausting, like you mentioned, but it's actually just lonely. Yeah. It reminds me when I wore Spanx for a while, Oh my God.

11:26 Like, Judah, that's not what we're talking about. But, you know, you take off Spanx after the whole day and you're like, oh dear God, I got to let down a little bit. You know? I don't know if most- That's not it? No, no, no. That's so it. First of all, I don't know if most people know that Spanx actually was made for men. I don't even know if they still make them for men. What are we talking about? Yeah. This is years ago. Yeah. Spanx tank tops are like unbelievable. Yeah. And I'm not talking about the loose ones. I'm talking about the super tight ones. Oh, no, the super tight ones. Yeah. I should get some more. Here's what was horrible about your Spanx. I stopped eating gluten. I didn't eat Spanx as much. No, but do you remember what actually happened? No. You and I were working out for the first time together in our marriage. Like, I finally got you to work out. Yeah. And you were working out and you were doing it. It was a pretty intense workout that we did together. But it was a nice marriage bonding moment. And you were committed because you wanted your chest to be flat.

12:20 Like, that was your whole goal. The trainer would ask you, what's your goal? Like, I just want my chest to be flat. and you were there, you were committed, you were working out. And then you discovered Spanx. And literally like a week later, you stopped working out. I don't think you worked out. Oh, I'm sorry. Let me speak into the camera for a moment. If you had the option, friends, you choose your own adventure. Here's your two options. Number one is work really, really hard, sweat profusely, and get, how should I say, minimal differences and adjustments and augmentations. Or don't work out. Enjoy your morning. Sip your coffee. And then put on a miracle tank top that makes you look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club. If you look like Brad Pitt. Choose your own adventure. If you look like Brad Pitt in Fight Club, I would not have complained about this thing. All right.

13:14 Louis. Anyway. It's me and you, man. It's me and you. This is outrageous. But that spank stop was so tight. You couldn't wait to take it off at the end of the day. Yeah. So is it better? Well, I'm just making the metaphor. If I could return again to the usage of my metaphor before we discussed me versus Brad Pitt in Fight Club. I didn't bring up. What man can compare? I didn't bring up. This is astronomical. You brought up Brad Pitt in Fight Club. So that's on you. So back to my metaphor. Yes. But the feeling of like taking off Spanx and you're like, you know, it's not like super encouraging because you take Spanx off and you're like, oh, yeah, dang, still me. It's kind of hoping Spanx would like also change me while I wore it. But, yeah, you do feel some kind of way, right? It's like taking off a mask or a bunch of makeup. I don't know.

14:06 You're like, I hope people still like love me the way I am. Women feel that way about taking a bra off at the end of the day. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Oh, it's like, oh, finally. Finally, free. Yeah. Yeah. So it is a weird sensation. I think that we're all experiencing when we get home by ourselves, turn off our phone, turn off our Instagram, turn off social media, turn off our presentation and our posturing and our way of like presenting ourselves to the world. And suddenly you're like left alone in your own head in the silence of your own bedroom. And you're like, I am me. Is me enough? Is me sufficient? Is me the person people are in love with? Or is it the spanks version of me and um that's a tough spot to be in that is a really tough spot to be in because we can't if we don't feel seen and heard then we can't feel loved but if the only way we can feel loved is if we are a different version of ourselves then we can't feel seen and heard and it feels like this downward and then the only person who knows you is you so literally by definition you are in a lonely place but i actually think you get to a point where you don't even know yourself yeah don't I mean that was for me high school was trying to figure out who I was and trying to learn myself and I mean high school life all the way through I feel like it wasn't my favorite thing about becoming 40 and finding and getting into my 40s it's like you know what I think I know who I am and I like myself so well it's definitely we're at that age where it's like this is either who I am or I got so much work to do I'm not going to change all right this is who I am you know you're just like ah man all right I get it you know and you hope that at at midlife that we find ourselves in uh 45 do that again I'm 90 I keep saying that it's so bizarre but um yeah you hope at at our stage you're like I kind of hope I'm I'm okay with who I am because I guess this might be it yeah but we're gonna keep growing yeah yeah but there has to be a better answer than just getting old or just getting older because we have painted a fairly bleak picture of loneliness like it's hopeless people don't really see you they don't know you so you can't feel loved and you feel lonely and yeah what's the answer what's the antidote well actually before we get to the answers in the antidote i want to bring up another problem

16:14 and just paint a really bleak picture okay right um and this is a confession a true confession that i don't think you know about actually are you ready yeah i'm ready um so i've you're gonna be so annoyed because it's going to start with so my therapist talking about this has been if you're a therapist out there i love you i think i have two therapists right now if i'm not mistaken but like literally every conversation we have right now in our family we're not in our family just with you and on our date nights and stuff yeah sorry our family is it pertains to you and not the kids they're they're they're they're not in therapy yet yet but um everything starts like date night is like hey so my therapist and i'm like oh my god i i completely own it i absolutely have become that person because it has been so transformative so okay we got that so my therapist yeah um in our conversations all the things she's asked me to do i've been like okay yep yep on it i can do that i can do that the one thing i've actually pushed back on with her is she's like no why don't you try you know doing this to make some new friends because i i've been in a season and we've talked about this before on a previous episode where the last few years have just been really our friendships for the last 20 years and we've had really good amazing long-term friendships relationships and it feels like the last couple years they've been a little decimated if i could use a kind word for it right yeah but dramatically changed dramatically changed is a, is a less intense word. And my therapist, my therapist, um, we were talking about this and she said, why don't you do this, this and that for, you know, try to make some new friends.

18:00 And I, it's the first time I said, I don't think I can do that. I don't think I have it in me. I don't even know, even knowing everything that we know about health and smoking and national, you know, epidemic of loneliness. It's like, you know, it's been a rough journey. That's been a little bit painful. And I actually don't know how much I want to make new friends right now. And I just want to say that so we can talk about that for a minute, because before we get into all of this conversation about how do we actually go about making friends? What are the benefits of it? What do we need to do? I want to acknowledge that real place that I find myself in. And maybe I'm by myself, but I would imagine there's other people in the same space who feel like for whatever reason I don't even know if I want to make friendships probably I feel like I've been hurt in the past or I've been misunderstood or I've been misrepresented and I think I'm just going to be fine by myself and my dog whoa so adding to the bleak picture that we've already painted um what would you say to that and obviously I have my well you could always try cigarettes you know that's an option well then see me that they're less detrimental so then you're doing doing double duty like yeah one's worse than there so i'm just gonna do both i'm just gonna go for the loneliness and the 15 zigs a day and maybe then i'll be skinny chain smoking on our podcast here um it's not as bad as loneliness um man that's such a good such a good question um and uh yeah i i'm not entirely sure i think people probably assume that that we turn on the cameras and start podcasting because we have this beautiful ornate plan but I mean you you always have notes I I don't but it's more exciting to me but um I think more than anything my my sensation that I get is is empathy and uh a level of understanding in my own journey though I'm an extrovert you're an introvert and so you know you do the math so to speak that that lends

20:10 itself to you. I've understood you more through our firstborn who is like me, who's a lot like you. He's never going to have a lot of friends, but he's going to have really meaningful, deep friends. And I think the challenge becomes when looking at our 19 year old, it's like, as his life progresses, if he's committed just to the few friends he's always had, but if something in his life were to change those relationships, well, then it, it, it, It puts him in a very interesting and peculiar situation, which I think in a lot of ways you find yourself in. You are not, your personality isn't prone to like, well, lost that friend, going to make a new one. You know, where I'd be like, all right, well, make some new friends. And I have made some new friends recently. I've got a lot of old friends still, by the way, just to be clear. I'm down for new friends and old friends.

21:03 And I still have amazing friends. I know my friends listening to this thing, well, I thought we were friends. Yeah, yeah, totally. But you don't, by nature, you are not a, oh, you know what? I've got to feel a little lonely. I'm going to make some new friends. It's like, I'm feeling kind of lonely. Is this the rest of my life? And is this just how it is? And we've had some of those combos. So, yeah, if I was watching this podcast or listening to this podcast, I'd be like, yeah, okay, so what in the world are you talking about? Yeah, that's how I feel. I don't feel like making new friends, but I do feel lonely. And I think that's a peculiar conundrum that I'm sure a lot of people find themselves in. And, yeah, I'd love to discuss it for sure and learn and maybe come up with some action items. Like who says that? Action items. um thank you for your empathy and not judgment over that statement and that heart posture that i've genuinely found myself in i think because you and i are so different and making friends probably seems so easy to you that it could be easy for you to to judge or belittle and thank you for not um and i think i said that first because easy for me to tell you that in a safe safe space of the podcast you know but recognizing there has to be a lot of other people who feel very similarly like okay saw the title of this podcast how to make friends or whatever the title is going to be and i just want to skip this one because i'm bad at it i've been hurt by it i don't even want to do it and so don't give me tools for something that i don't want to do that i know i should change but i just don't even want to and i i want to acknowledge that and say that's okay i mean i have to tell myself that that that's okay yeah and and just say for me the um the why am i emotional about it the journey has just ended up being a very personal one between me and god which is probably i don't know if that actually helps with loneliness or not but um

23:09 ah sorry don't so sorry that it's led me back to what do I actually believe about God does God love me when I'm doing everything right or does he love me when I'm a little bit stubborn and resistant to I know you want me to have friends but I don't really want that right now and um it's actually been a really cool thing with God Wow. it's special to hear you say that i think um ultimately that's probably going to be the best takeaway for for anybody is that um you know you and i are definitely that couple that believes that god is a real person and he reveals himself as a father the ultimate father the eternal father and the father of us all and he's perfect though he's the perfect father and does want to be near and close i mean the bible says he's near to the broken hearted you know so if you're feeling broken it's that the scripture seems to insinuate that he's extra near you know and you don't even have to believe what we believe to be like well i could draft off that i could i could glean from that um there is a a gregarious kind and generous divine being who wants to wrap his arms around me and be there with me and sit there with me and not fix me as much as friend me.

24:39 He's like a puppy. By the way, I'm so impressed. He's a lot better than a puppy, but I hear you. I know. Sorry, that was really sacrilegious. I also just tried to, I had to lighten the moment there a little bit, right? No, God is not. I kind of want to ask you a difficult question about your personality type. I love like the off camera, like Kleenex things. Yeah. Yeah. Toilet paper. We never have Kleenex. I don't understand those people who always have Kleenex with them. Yeah. I think that's such a gift. Not us. We've never. I can't even remember the last time we had Kleenex in our home. I don't mean just the brand. I just mean Kleenex. Yeah. It's always toilet paper. Toilet paper. I don't know if that's a generational thing. That's an interesting observation. Yeah. Anyways. Anyway. If I, yeah, if I had one challenging comment, it would be that it seems sometimes in your personality that you you suffer from something and what you suffer from is I don't want it to sound um heartless I don't want it to sound ruthless because none of those things is what I intend but exploratory for sure like I'd like to know what it if it's just a personality thing we've been married, coming up on 24 years. So your trajectory of your emotion is an interesting observation as it relates to friends, meaning I am more prone in my personality to fake it, to fake friendliness, to please people or make people happy or engage maybe potential friendship that could be meaningful and we'll see about it but I'm I can be friendly I can be friendly when I don't feel friendly when I don't want to be friendly when I'm exhausted with friendliness but I'm just like yeah what's up man tell me hey where you from your personality one of the reasons I married you and attracted to you is I find you to be a little more authentic than my personality which I also have friends just like you that I've made friends because I

26:47 I find them to be sometimes more authentic I mean I have friends that are like me too that are a little more people pleaser and kind of friendly even when it costs us dearly and we go home so fatigued because we're so friendly. But your friendliness seems sometimes selective. And then I wonder sometimes if you suffer silently at home because you sometimes don't have the energy or don't sense that being friendly. you don't have, you're not beholden to pleasing people like I am. So you, I think, get misread a lot. So do some of my other friends, but particularly you get misread like, oh, maybe she doesn't care. But you're just like, no, I don't have the energy to give. I don't have the ability. So I'd like to be trusted with sitting here and not doing that. But so much of our world is not oriented that way and so I wonder if if not only you suffer as a result but other people with your similar personality and makeup because you when I say selective friendliness I don't mean that you are dismissive or that you are removed or that you feel more elite or better than others or any moral high ground although that is to how it's taken sometimes I think for you it's it's it's energy management it's also like man I don't know this person I don't need to know everybody and be everybody's friend so that's okay I'll give them distance and myself distance but I wonder sometimes late at night if you kind of feel like man I'm so lonely my personality is like well just be a little friendlier which I think is kind of a short-sighted response yeah it's an interesting question in light of what we talked about a little bit ago about being your authentic self and feeling like you've been a fake version of yourself all day so you come home and you know take my spanks off um that if i was and i've done this for a season of life i think you're so amazing i admire you so much and especially in the way you relate to people that i have tried to probably be

28:53 a little bit more like you and i just end up tired and exhausted and still the same result of loneliness because i don't feel like i'm being my authentic self anyway and so what's what's the point if i have to right it's such a tension because i was about if i was about to say if i have to change who i am to make friends then are those really friends but at the same time i understand there is a putting of yourself out there and that is to me the fear that i'm having to overcome right now it is the um it's the fear of rejection and the fear of i'm not good at this because we've had i had the same three four amazing friends for 20 years and so didn't have to learn how to make new friends for you know obviously there's skills in that process but um it's a fear of rejection fear of doing something i'm not good at and it's like i just don't know if it's worth trying does that make sense yeah makes a lot of sense doomed if you do doomed if you don't almost so it's like what's the point it's gonna be me i haven't heard that version of it doomed instead of well i didn't want to you know be tv mature here yeah um so stepping out and doing something new and scary for me is the hurdle to overcome and i not new but unused for the past for the past 20 years how is it that as we become adults finding friends and stepping out with new people to try to like and not i'm not talking about acquaintances but people that you almost okay remember when um we were youth pastors and this was a thing in the early 2000s i don't know if it's still a thing anymore but in a in a guy and a girl were interested in each other and then all of a sudden they had it used to be called the define the relationship conversation oh yeah remember that that's still happening right yeah but i don't think it's called that anymore oh any curious somebody let us somebody let us know but that you know like how much courage it takes for a man or a woman to step out and say, okay, I like you. Do you like me? Okay. We like each other. Okay. So what are we going to do about that now? I feel like friendships almost take

31:04 that same level of courage at some point where to say, Hey, yeah, we've been acquaintances. We've been texting. We've been whatever, but I like you as a friend. Do you like me as a friend? Okay. what are we going to do about that now? And to have the courage to do that. Almost rules of engagement is what you're talking about. No, no, I'm not talking about what is our, I'm talking about the vulnerability of, I see, of, I like you. Do you like me? Because you could say, I like you and you might be more interested in pursuing a friendship with somebody than they are in pursuing it with you. And then you just put yourself out there and you got rejected. does that make sense yeah it's such a good point and i can imagine so many people dealing with that um i don't have as a solution as much as i think for me i crave like you do um a level of vulnerability and candor that is uh maybe not totally status quo and normal um i think that's how we see the divine too it's how we see god who loves us in our um nightmare state so to speak you know we're all troubled and and and pained and broken and fractured and yet god is is so um gracious and and and patient with us so i i think a lot of my relationships now are taking shape um in a lot more admitting my feelings of insufficiency or insecurity or fear or worry.

32:42 Yesterday I had a coffee with someone who we were talking about FaceTime and he was just sharing his heart about FaceTime and sometimes people are distracted when he calls whatever and I was like man I to be honest I didn't take people's FaceTime for a long time when I was doing something else if I'm at the mall or if I'm the golf course or obviously a meeting but like you know I love that that's those the two places that you are at the mall or the golf course who goes to the mall anymore by the way I do you know like that guy um but but I just admitted like yeah I just felt like if I wasn't like completely focused that I shouldn't shouldn't take the face time because I thought it would maybe communicate that I didn't care and I wasn't focused and I wasn't committed and and we just talked through that and even with my friend he was like like with me and I was like yeah like even with you like I didn't I wouldn't take the face time it's like we were able to say like no bro take my face time we're brothers like I don't care if you're doing something else I just want to hear from you and say hi to you and and you know that that's the kind of stuff that i crave going forward is just friends who are willing to talk about really silly stuff but it is the silly stuff isn't it that kind of sticks out and ends up kind of sticking around and starting to make you think and feel some kind of way yeah i agree and that's probably what i feel not so good at sometimes is the silly stuff like you have a meaningful conversation i'm i'm down but silly stuff probably I'm not so great at sometimes but well the silly stuff isn't just being comical and whatever but I also mean like what seems inconsequential but actually in light of it's like wait you weren't taking my calls because you were at the mall like bro you can take my call at the mall it's funny it's like the more you know somebody the more comfortable you are with them you will take their facetimes it like like my mom calls if I'm going to the bathroom like hey mom literally while I'm peeing wait what really yeah you take a facetime in the bathroom with my mom

34:49 I didn't know that I would with you I would laying in bed um yeah but it's like obviously so many people I wouldn't okay yeah I have a statement I want you to tell me true or false okay only two answers then you have to you can't you can't choose a middle road okay and it can be more true or less true or false whatever but true or false it's lonely at the top true why do you lean that way why do you why would you say that's a true statement well first of all let me be very clear I don't assume in any way shape or form that I'm at the top I don't know what that means But I know as a chairman of the board, I've experienced that role as a community leader and the spokesperson, so to speak, of the community that that that has felt very isolating and lonely. When you employ your friends, I don't employ the church.

35:51 And, you know, but it was like I was the chairman of the board. You know, I was at the time the equivalent of a CEO. We now have a CEO in our community. But yeah, it felt very ostracizing at times because it was like, oh, man, what happens if I got to make decisions for the community that adversely affects decisions about my friendships? And that intersection was very lonely. Still is. And so I don't know if that translates to peak performers in athletics or entertainment or, you know, we used to have a friend who was ranked as a barista in the world. you do barista competitions you know like so i don't know if that you're at the top of the barista game or if you're the number one ranked teacher you won teacher of the year i don't know if that's lonely i would imagine it is but i know for our own context like yeah there's a level of loneliness that you know sometimes it feels like you sign up for it a little bit and that's just what comes with with the territory um and i don't know watch the last dance with mj you know and you watch Mike and you're like whoa Mike seemed a little lonely you know he was he was the guy he was the Chicago Bulls he was the NBA it seemed yeah different from his teammates uh when I was younger I would have said false is it lonely at the top I would have said nah you can you can you can push through that that's a mentality you can choose it admire you and I I would probably tend to agree with you again it's it's a phrase we're not saying at the top but yeah just organizationally yeah um okay so we've been talking about something that i'm not good at can we talk about something i'm good at now so i can feel better about yeah what is that oh come on i'm kidding so many things yeah let's talk about i do i mean i right i feel so awkward admitting yeah i don't really know if i want to make new friends right now and then let's talk about how to make new friends you know like where do you go from there in a podcast about you know helping the surgeon general combat loneliness by developing friendships but yeah the name of this episode is how the smiths are helping the gen the surgeon surgeon general almost the general surgeon he's probably a general surgeon

37:56 also probably um and that is boundaries and the role they play in friendships and relationships in how to how to use them to enhance friendships not take away from them um when i define boundaries and what comes to your mind when I even say that in the context of friendships? Boundaries for me right now is just all summed up in one little itty bitty word and that's no. And somebody told me years ago, I think late in our 20s, your no as you get older will become far more important than your yes. But there's a chapter as a young developing human where it's like yes is what's so formidable and formative because you're just like yes, yes, yes. that my mom made me say yes to every speaking engagement I ever received, no matter where it was in the world. And now most of those things I say no to. And that's a boundary because what's motivating me is time with you and time with our kids and time with our dear friends in the city that God put us in. Or in our case, maybe the couple of cities God's put us in that we're in love with and people. So I would say no. How would you define boundaries? I'm sure it's much more sophisticated oh i think she i was like he's gonna ask me that and i don't have a great oh really great felt like i had a pretty good answer no um yeah i had maybe broaden it and i would see it more as setting expectations because sometimes the boundary is actually is actually a yes that it's it's setting the expectations of hey we're in a relationship we're in a friendship and here is here's the expectations like i have noticed when i give out my number you know this and probably why part of why i feel lonely is so many friendships are developed over text right now and i am just a very bad texter like i'm very text shy my kids i wouldn't call you a bad texter i'd call you a non-texter frankly there's a big difference yeah the kids say my texts come across intimidating like how can you text me intimidating is the word i believe yeah and so i try to put like the heart eye emojis and

40:07 super excited about date night tonight she'll text back lowercase me too oh sounds like it what am i supposed to say like me too exclamation board 50 exclamation mark i'll throw a heart eye little heart eye emoji in there it all depends on how you feel emotionally i mean if you want to translate you go you want me to give you the language of texting and how it works yeah gosh My friends out there know all caps communicate what it communicates. Yelling. Yeah, I know that. So I don't want to text back me too in all caps.

40:42 Anyway. Punctuation, things like that. I don't want to get into it. I know. You're great with punctuation, but texting isn't about being accurate with your punctuation. I know. It's about being, how should I say. It's really hard for me not to. Demonstrative with your punctuation. Yeah, I'm not good at it. but when I give people my number I will try to say hey just so you know I'm really bad at texting. When I give you my number I just want you to know I'm not on my phone ever so this is just a charade is that what you tell them? Something along those lines It's not real what I'm doing with you right now. I'm giving you my number but you're never going to be actually. When I'm giving you my number just know that the man I've been married to for 24 years he also cannot get a hold of me. I'm kidding You've done a little bit better over the years. I mean, yes and no. Yeah. But so many reasons for that.

41:34 But when I'm with you, I love that the phone does not dominate your life or our time or our dates or our vacation. Thank you. Except I have found a new numbers game. This guy's like taking up my chair. I know. He's so cute. I found a new numbers game on my phone and I have been playing that. It's kind of fun. Yeah. I think that happened last night. There's a game on and I'm watching and usually Chelsea's just sitting there watching with me and she's just on her phone i'm like who are you texting it's like oh the texter now has become the the critic yeah but i wasn't texting you weren't even you're like i'm playing a numbers game and i was like but yes not about texting that's right it's about boundaries and expectations and for me just to say hey just you know i'm i'm really not good at setting expectations setting setting expectations in relationships especially in new relationships yep and trying to help people not take things personally right yeah and the thing that i'm working on is a quick no rather than a slow no and i'm i'm i'm well known with my friends to the slow no and i just need to be better at being like no i'm not going to be able to be there as opposed to let me let me think about it you know and it's like bro i think on this sometimes i really just thought i mean that we're going to talk about it you and i can we do it but i think a quicker no would be better than a slower no for me in terms of boundaries yeah i think it was a lisa turker i'm not turkeress lisa turkish turkish yeah i don't know how to say her name that was a nugget from one of her books oh what yeah stood out it was one of those like lisa right one of those lifelong lessons i probably got that from you because you read that book is that where i got it yeah i think so yeah but i like it when i like it when you take stuff and then and then think that make it my own that's a good relationships too um good relationships really do make us better people yeah and i i know this can you expand on that and then yeah expand on how relationships make us better people well i mean it's an interesting study as it pertains to ancient scripture because

43:41 this idea of walking is uh i think paramount is the right word it starts in the garden where we see the beginning of the torah like god wants to walk with us which i think is a portrait of we do this we go on walks of connection and relationship and i think we are told never to run with god uh we are told to not jog with god we're told to walk with god and And the scripture seems to insinuate that that's almost the culmination of our whole existence is this walking. And I think who you walk with matters. And life is always moving forward. It can't move back. So it's this idea of just walking every day. The Bible talks about walking in the spirit and all that. And I think this idea of relationship and connection is, well, it might very well be the big idea.

44:40 I was telling a friend yesterday who's contemplating the ways of Jesus and walking with Jesus that he's like, so you're saying relationship is the reason we're all here. And I stopped and I was like, yeah, yeah, it is. So that doesn't mean whoever has the most relationship wins. That's not the goal. It's not about the amount as much as it's about the depth and the commitment and the care and the candor and opening our hearts to one another and then learning about the invisible realm, which made the visible realm through our connections with humans and learning and listening and growing and not posturing ourselves as the expert or the instructor or the leader or the captain all the time, but also like, bro, tell me what you know and tell me what you see. Tell me what you feel. And we grow and we develop as humans and ultimately worshipers to the creator. So I'm a big proponent. I think this is a super important episode.

45:45 It just goes to show, though, the stuff that seems to matter the most in this life often is the most painful and the most challenging. It's the pain point of it all. Marriage is such an interesting investigation on our capacity for long-term, long-standing, committed relationship. And by the way, we've got friends who have had multiple marriages and gone through all kinds of, so we're not going to get into the details of who's right and wrong and bad and whatever. Marriages start and they end, we move on, we keep going, God's gracious. But in our journey of 24 years, you're like, whoa, this is not easy. If this was easy, I think everybody would do it. So this idea of friendship and relationship and deep connection and a real sense of being known, let's not kid ourselves. This is no light and little thing.

46:43 This is no easy, low-hanging fruit that everyone can just do. it takes a level of vulnerability and and and and almost feeling exposed and naked and like do you still love me for who I really am and and do you and and sometimes like here I have been married to you for 24 years but it's like I need to hear that every day almost like you still love me we're good I love you you know and it's like you know when you say like I love you but it's not like i love you it's like i love you you know and you're like question you love me too that's me just saying that i need you to say it question mark question mark question mark that's what it would be in the text but anyways um thanks for that we can talk about that later but but yeah this episode isn't dedicated to like let's judah and chelsea are going to tell everybody out there how to have the best friendships ever as if we know or as if we have those but I love our friendships I think they're the best but um you know work is what comes to mind but I wouldn't call it work as much as I would call it um a willingness to be you and see what happens and is that's work I don't know it's more courage than work I guess yeah I that's the the thought that I wanted to close this episode out with is courage is just courage and you know as we you know conclude episodes in prayer wondering if you would pray but pray that people would have courage either courage to be themselves so that they can be known for being themselves or courage to maybe take a step deeper in a relationship maybe courage to have a spiritual conversation with somebody that maybe there's a a friendship that's just been surface level and you want to get it deeper but you don't know how this is like my one tip for the day that I do think spiritual conversations are an amazing way to take a relationship to the next level, to make them intimate, to make them deep. We believe we are made spirit, soul, and body. And our spirit is the deepest part of who we are in spiritual conversations. Like when you

48:53 and I talk about what's going on in our spirit, Jesus, and the Bible, and God, and even with our friends, there's something really bonding and deep to that. And so maybe somebody needs courage to have that kind of a conversation um obviously you and i are community leaders and pastors and we try to provide tools to give people spiritual conversations so that they can deepen their friendships and develop real community um but it takes courage yeah it all it all just takes courage and that courage i think in my own life and i promise we're coming to a close sounds like I'm doing a sermon, but is really from the ground zero of God loves me. And if I was the most candid that I could possibly be around this topic, the loss of friendships that we've all experienced and you and I have experienced in these last few years, and a lot of people have, there's been a lot of fallout in light of global events and happenings and developments that are mostly kind of beyond our pay grade, but yet we persist in sharing our views and opinions.

50:06 We all do. It's just the day and age we live in. But I go to sleep at night. And what helps me sleep, honestly, is that I know that I'm loved by a perfect heavenly father. He is revealed more in Scripture as Father than any other description and definition of Him. And I know that He loves me. Good, bad, and ugly, He loves me. And that gives me the courage of like, hey, I'm going to put myself out there today. Because when you talk about spiritual conversations, what you mean is, hey, tell me what's going on inside of you.

50:44 It doesn't have to be perfect. and that would be the perfect sentence structure and the perfect verb and the noun and the apostrophe and the semicolon. Just let it all come out however it comes out. But I wanna know what's going on on the inside. And maybe you don't know, but what do you know that's going on? Well, I feel pain. I feel lonely. I feel angry. I feel hate. I feel disgust. I feel, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, come on. Let's talk about that. But the courage that I find to do that is that before I do it, I don't know if I'll be loved for doing that. But I know before I do it, I'm loved. And after I do it, I'm loved by my Heavenly Father who knows me better than I know myself. And that's a crack in the code as far as I'm concerned. And obviously we've dedicated so much of our professional life to telling the story of God's love for humanity. And so I'm not going I'm not going to brush over this episode without saying that I don't know any other fuel for deepening friendship or making new friendship that is bigger and better and more robust than the love of a heavenly father.

51:55 It's amazing. Yep, I agree. And that's what I want to pray about. Perfect. Thanks. God, you hear us when we're talking to you right now. and you know this episode and when we're recording it and where the world is and what's going on. But you also know when individuals will watch this episode and what's going on in the world in that exact moment and what they're facing in their exact circumstances situation. I ask that like only you can, in only the way I know how to pray, that you'd wrap your massive cosmic arms around your children here on earth who are fledgling and fragile and feel a lot of pain today, particularly around relationships and human connection. Give us the courage and the strength to put ourselves out there again.

52:50 And maybe we won't be loved the way we want, but from you we will be. And we thank you for that. Comfort those. Be near to the brokenhearted as you say that you are. use this very simple conversation. Please use it to comfort and encourage people all over the world. We thank you for that. Thank you for my wife. Thank you for our marriage, our friendship, our children. Thank you for protecting us and keeping us and helping us in the journey and the challenge of friendship.