In Sickness and in Faith

0:02 Okay, so today's episode might sound like it's a bit of a bummer. And well, the topic is very much of. Do people know that I don't know the topic until this? Yeah, I feel like you try to make it clear every episode. That was a little loud. Sorry. That was a little loud. Well, a little aggressive there. Yeah, that made me laugh. So I have a caveat before I get to what our episode is. Caveat or caveat? Oh, good question. I go back and forth in my mind. Caveat. Yeah, I don't know. Caveat sounds a little more exotic. Exotic? Yeah, I agree. What's exotic is your chest hair today. Oh, come on. You just, you really reacted there. Well, it scared me. I thought you were going to pull my chest hair. People don't know, but that is what you like to do. Yeah. So anyway, our episode today is definitely a heavy topic, would be a great way to say it. But I have to say this.

0:54 You and I cope with heavy things through humor. It is definitely. And sarcasm. It's definitely a skill that we had developed. So there's some good news and bad news about that. Okay. Because this episode is very heavy, I'm sure it will still be filled with humor. That's the good news. The bad news is we might highly offend people with our humor around the topic. So just bracing. Our topic today is dealing with cancer that we have faced with our fathers and my dad with some significant health issues. Oh my goodness. I did not see that going. Yeah. I'm surprised. Yeah. It's a heavy topic. It is. But I think our goal in talking about this, obviously- I didn't even look at your notes to your story. I believe you. Yep. Because they're upside down for you. Exactly. But I think we're talking about this, first of all, because it's a, I mean, interesting, just very personal, heartfelt stories for us to tell about our dads. But second of all, I know when you and I have gone through counseling with, you know, with Les and Leslie, amazing marriage coaches.

1:51 Yep. One of the biggest helps of it was when we would tell them everything that we're facing and feeling and going through, and they just look at us and say, yeah. It's a very normal response. Yeah. Right? And how great it was to feel normal about the things that we were facing. And I know there's very unique dynamics to the journeys that our dads have been through in their health. And both of their journeys are literal opposite ends of the spectrum in their result. But what I hope is that listeners and people who are listening can feel hope, can feel normalized in all the emotions and all the ranges of things that they're feeling. the majority of most of us are going to walk through the death of our parents in our lifetime. And even if somebody's not facing that right now, that they can think, begin to think about it and prepare for it and just kind of hear some stories around it. So maybe it's not quite so shocking when that does happen. So we're going to start the episode telling the stories of the journeys that our dads have been on and went through. Okay.

2:49 Do you want to start with yours or mine? Maybe you start since I'm just new to what we're doing here. I really thought I knew what you were going to say. What did you think I was going to say when I said a heavy conversation? Probably social justice, which I'm sure we will. But this is an important topic and one that, unfortunately, the more we watch the news and life and our phones, you see so many people facing different forms of cancer. And I think it's an important... And sickness and disease. And sickness and disease. And even in the context of relationships, how many relationships are derailed by fighting your parents fighting illness or facing illness. And it's, I mean, it was, it was a journey for us for sure. So yeah, I do. I do believe it's an important. Are you, are you okay with it?

3:40 Yeah, totally. Okay. Totally. You want me to start with my dad? I mean, if you, if you prefer me to start, I can. I'll start with mine. Great. Um, yeah, just to give context. So people know where we're coming from. um in 2019 my dad was diagnosed with stage four aggressive prostate cancer and if you know anything had been unchecked or uncaught he had been uncaught which is that's one of the cancers that's like it should be no problem if it gets caught early which was really interesting he had some doctors completely overlooked test results for the past few years which is who in and of itself a really tough thing to deal with to feel like these medical professionals that we put our faith and overlooked tests that my dad did go in and get. And as a result, he was given a death sentence, so to speak. He was given four to five years at that point to live. And that was a very, I think, generous, remember?

4:36 Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I think at first it was maybe three years. He went in and did the PET scan and it was the cancer had spread all throughout his body. So nothing that could, excuse me, go in and be surgically removed or it was just kind like okay we'll give you some things to help mitigate the growth of this but it's already gone too far we can't do any surgery even chemo like there wasn't he was beyond the stages of cancer treatment and you were amazing in that season for real yeah remember that summer it was 2019 so it was pre-covid and we just spent a lot of intentional time with my family remember we went to uh did a hotel for my birthday oh yeah like sat around and played cards with my parents it Did a lot of that. Did a lot of that. Yeah, just a really sweet time. I think, isn't it crazy that we know our parents are hopefully going to pass before we do? Yeah.

5:27 But we don't take intentional time to be with them. Think of that. So that was my dad. He started on some cancer treatment and his numbers were looking pretty good. Yep. And for about a year. And then we get to 2020 and of course the world is in COVID and so many things are crazy. My parents were actually staying here at this house. My dad was on the phone with his cancer doctor. And the story I'm about to tell is so full of so many miracles. You're probably not going to. As I was thinking about it, I'm like, I actually can't believe all these things. And time doesn't really permit to fill in all the blanks, to be honest. All the nitty gritty. So my mom and dad are on the phone with his doctor. And all of a sudden my dad says, my head hurts, my head hurts, my head hurts. And the doctor said, go lay down and see what happens. my dad laid down, his speech started getting slurred. And so they just like, okay, they said, told my mom, hang up, call an ambulance right now. Ambulance came, could not get any faster that he was at a hospital, just happened to be at a brain trauma hospital that's close to us. If they would have been at their house, which is a couple hours away, my dad would not have survived. So miracle number one, he was here. Miracle number two, he was on the phone with a doctor. Miracle number three, the hospital they took him to. I mean, just whatever. But even with all of those, he had a brain aneurysm that had ruptured and they gave him, uh, only a 3% chance of making it through the next 24 hours. Yeah. So my sister and I flew down. We were, we were up in Washington together.

6:58 We flew down, came to just touch base with my mom. And at this point, remember the heart of COVID, the summer of COVID, nobody was getting into the hospital. People were passing away on their own. People were having babies on their own, which is just a tragic thing in life in so many ways. And they called us and said, okay, me and my mom, my sister, you each have 15 minutes to go visit your dad or your husband. And we now look back and realize, oh, they were giving us those moments to go say goodbye to him. And he was not conscious at all. So that was one of the hardest things I've had to do in life. Yeah. Going to go say goodbye to my dad. And, you know, he's not responsive, not talking back. But I just remember kissing his cheek and telling him, dad, you've been such a good dad. Thank you. You know, all the things that you'd want to say. So we did that.

7:51 I can't. My sister went. Then I went. Then my mom went. We each picked each other up and were waiting and then just bawled together and cried. And then I called you and cried. And you were amazing. You took care of the kids for so much time so I could come and spend time with my dad. Anyway, my dad lived that night, lived the next night. ended up, and again, can't go into all the details, ended up in the hospital for eight weeks, but eventually made a full and complete recovery from his brain aneurysm. He doesn't remember those eight weeks. He was really out of it. And we didn't know, does he get to have permanent brain damage? I mean, he was, when I say out of it, he was really out of it. And the feeling was that almost surely there would be, it would be unprecedented for him to return to his former self. Right. Remember, it's the middle of summer. Remember when he finally got up to calling the kids and he called our family. We're like, hey, kids, talk to Papa, you know, which is what they call him. He goes, hey, kids, Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. Love you all. We're like, oh, it's July. That was like the tamer ways that he was out of his mind. But he made a full recovery and I'll tell the story later about what he remembers from those times when he was so out of it, which is really pretty miraculous. But so he made a recovery from a brain aneurysm, which is miraculous, is less than a 1% chance that he would have fully recovered without brain damage.

9:13 And then, but because of the brain aneurysm, he could not be on any more cancer treatment. They think that could have even triggered it. So here he is with this aggressive form of cancer. And we're thinking, okay, well, maybe we got another year with him. Maybe, you know, who knows, but he still has this cancer diagnosis hanging over him. Obviously that was three years ago.

9:35 Two weeks ago, my dad went in for his full PET scans, his full treatment. Yeah, just two weeks ago, yeah. And they said, well, cancer hasn't spread. Your numbers are looking good. Hold them steady. And this is my dad on no treatment who is not even supposed to be alive anymore. And my dad asked the doctor, he said, so, and I don't know if our doctor, if his doctor follows Jesus at all or not. And he goes, so what about those doctors who told me I only had four years left to live? And that was even on treatment. He goes, what's up with them? Were they just out to lunch? And the doctor looked at my dad and goes, well, must be the Lord. That was the only explanation he had regarding my dad. So we just joke with my dad. We call him the miracle man or like the man with nine lives or the most like he has something happens. And we're just not worried about him because. and he has been through a lot in his life skin cancer that's yeah um we haven't mentioned that yeah right stage three skin cancer when i was in high school yeah i mean just yeah you know dad if you're watching this does he watch our podcast i don't know if he does he'll watch this episode yeah love you love you dad yeah so that was and he's back to looking like robert redford he's so handsome his hair full head of hair that he had to have shaved off yeah back i mean he has to be that good looking to marry your mom.

10:50 It's so beautiful. They play tennis together three times a week. Yeah, they're back playing tennis. Your mom's beating him. That should be no to dad. You're welcome, mom. You are losing to mom. For the shout out. He's going to hate that part. But it's just so miraculous, the journey that he's been on in the recovery. Your dad's story. Yeah, my dad's story. And obviously we're presuming everyone has a story out there. This is our stories. And I'm hoping in a way that by sharing these stories, my story with my dad's a little bit older. It's been he has been gone now for almost 12 years, I believe, 13 years. So it's a little bit different, but hoping that that anyone who takes time to listen to this episode is is finding some solace and comfort and encouragement. My dad's life was extended by by multiple years.

11:46 uh, it was on the, I don't remember. I'm not great with timelines. You know that, but I know I was being the best man in one of my childhood friends, uh, wedding. I was in Portland, Oregon. We were in the middle of a, of the old photo shoot, uh, the old wedding photo shoot. We're all in tuxedos and dresses and things. And, and, and my mom, I think it called me multiple times. So I just stepped away for a second and said, Hey, what's up? And she said, Hey, your, your dad and I have something to tell you. And I think they had either just called my sister, uh, or I'd gotten ahold of her, probably got ahold of me and said, you know, listen, here, here's what's happened. Uh, my dad had gone in for a pretty routine check, uh, key man insurance, which is something that, that, that they have on me and our community of faith being the lead pastor. Um, my dad was required. These are probably granular details that are unnecessary, but he went in for a pretty basic checkup. Health insurance checkup. Yeah. Health insurance for the church actually and found out, whoa, something's not right here. And come to find out, they found out real quickly it was multiple myeloma, which at the time, of course, some 12, 13 years later, multiple myeloma can be much more treatable from what I understand. I need to be careful in saying that and sensitive in saying that. And his diagnosis was 19 years ago. Zion had just been born. Zion was three months old. Great point. When that happened. Literally a different world. Yeah. Different world. Practically 20 years ago, which is really, really hard to believe. Really hard to believe. Yeah. And by the way, sorry, I said it was a, I said it was a health insurance checkup. It was a life insurance checkup. Oh, life insurance.

13:23 I'm just fact checking myself. It was an insurance. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to our marriage of 24 years where I get fact checked. But I fact check myself. Yeah. You do, you do it to everybody. I can tell you that much. You're very consistent. It's my love language. Um, but, uh, yeah, so there I was, you know, one of my, uh, one of my long, longest standing friends, uh, wedding and, and, uh, found out, um, you know, we're, we're gonna, we're gonna fight this cancer son. And, you know, I trust God and God's my healer. And well, well, dad, how much time do you have? You know, what's the doctor saying? Well, you know, it could be a year, it could be six months. Um, yeah. So obviously that hit like a ton of bricks. I got through the day, celebrated my friend. Does it feel so numb? Do you even remember the day looking back? Yeah, it was definitely like, we'll figure something out. We'll figure something out and go to focus on my friend. I don't even think I told my friend at that point.

14:18 No, we weren't allowed to tell anybody. Oh, that's right. We weren't telling anybody. Yeah, that's right. Fast forward though, my dad's life was extended some six years, which was really, really miraculous. Got a lot of treatments, a lot of out-of-the-box treatments that were really productive. And ultimately, I think my dad's positivity and faith was pretty sustaining. Obviously, I think it was the grace of God. And for those who know how Chelsea and I live and what we believe. So I was grateful for that. But obviously, I think we were on a plane to Vegas pretty quickly one Sunday. I actually, we were having lunch with your parents and got the call. Dad had fallen that night. By that point, his body was starting to pretty, just, he was showing the wear and tear of the cancer. And for anyone out there facing cancer, some forms of it really make you age almost overnight.

15:17 And that was happening. His back was broken in multiple places. And that night he had fallen and really couldn't move. And so mom got him to a hospital. My sister, he was living with my sister and brother-in-law in Las Vegas. And they got him to a hospital. And it became pretty obvious that this was going to be the last few moments. I'm very grateful. We were able to get on a plane very quickly, get to Vegas. Seattle to Vegas isn't that long of a flight. And we were able to kind of say our goodbyes. For anyone who knows what that's like, you know, you're not sure they can hear. kind of similar to when, you know, your dad was unresponsive, but you're talking to him. By all accounts, I think in a lot of ways they can hear. And we were able to say goodbye and then kind of took him off the machines that were keeping him breathing and seeing if he could breathe by himself. And over a process of several minutes, we were all there, a lot of family, excited family singing and said goodbye. But yeah, I think those are moments for anyone watching or listening who cancer, which is the worst. I hate it so much. There are all kinds of cancers and they're just diabolical and evil and wicked. And we hate cancer, pray against cancer, pray for people who are fighting it. But if you've ever been touched by it, in a way, your life is not ever completely the same and you see things differently. And a lot of horrific things happen during those chapters. But since then, you know, we are the couple that probably are pretty persuaded that God works things together for good. Not that everything is good, but he can make good out of really bad. And, um, you know, we, we've been able to savor life more, um, see that life is a gift and it's precious every day and it's all we have. So I'm grateful to talk about the subject. We haven't in a long time. So it's a little bit unorthodox. It is

17:23 unusual. Our experiences because your dad, um, his diagnosis was as bleak as my dad's. Um, and yet he's made this miraculous recovery, which has been very special, obviously, to us and miraculous. And in my dad's case, his life was extended, but then he passed. You know what I think was amazing about your dad's life being extended when I think about it is, I mean, your dad loved everything that he did. He loved being a dad. He loved golf. He loved pastoring the church. Loved being a grandpa. Just about more than anything. It's exactly what I was going to say. I was like, well, it's okay. More than anything else, he loved being a grandpa. I mean, when your sister had his oldest grandson. Benjamin, Jesse, I mean, it was like he came alive, which is probably why we're so excited to be grandparents. BJ was a cute baby. Oh my gosh. Now a handsome man. Yes, a wonderful man.

18:14 Yeah. But in those, in that time that his life was extended, he did get to meet all of his grandkids. Yep. Grace was a year and a half when he passed and she's the youngest. And I think, I just can sense the smile of God. on that even though his body was just decaying and i have such great memories of elliot sitting in bed with your dad watching john wayne movies yeah um so still loves those old westerns of his day and tonight is a is a high school basketball game with judah elliot wendell smith uh he carries the name of my dad and you know my dad would be beside himself to see elliot playing high school basketball. There's so many things in our life that I just think your dad would be absolutely freaking out right now. How does that make you feel? I mean, I think certainly there's a level of sadness, but I think there's a level of significance, you know, not just sadness of like how significant, um, people are and each other are and family is and friends are. And, um, I don't know if we've talked about this. We've, we've lost friends in our life as much as we've made friends in our life. You don't arrive at 45 and kind of go, whoa, all right. Sometimes, at least for us in our early 20s, it's like, I'll love the same friends forever. And then you land at 45 and you go, whoa, friends come, friends go, family goes. And I mean more as like passing, and family is incredible and hopefully forever. But we all be together.

19:54 We believe in a new heaven and a new earth. And I guess this isn't a time to talk about the afterlife and what we believe about that. But we find great comfort in what the book of Revelation reveals as a new heaven and a new earth. And that we will be reunited and we will be together. And I have comforted someone this week along those lines, for sure. Yeah, I think of that verse in Corinthians that says, is it Corinthians? That says, as followers of Jesus who believe in a heaven. Yeah. That we grieve the loss of people. but it's not exactly the same. We don't grieve the same. It says we don't grieve the same because we do have a hope of heaven. That's right. And it's, when my grandpa died, I remember heaven never really seemed that appealing to me, which is probably embarrassing to admit, but it's like all those- Yeah, you get your life in front of you. Yeah. Yeah, but all those times at youth camp when you were like really hungry and I just wanted to go on the beach walk with you so that maybe I could like, or on the beach walks, maybe I can stand next to you, all the beach walks at camp.

20:51 And he'd be standing there and like this chapel service at camp, the memory is so vivid. I'm just wanting the snack and the beach watch. I'm like, we're going to sing another song. And if you don't like this, this is what heaven's going to be like. You won't like heaven. And we're like, can heaven be the beach walk? Yeah, I'm really excited. Where I give you my sweatshirt? Penn State. Oh gosh, I felt so proud wearing that sweatshirt. Yeah. It was so fun. Still like Penn State today for that very reason. And they're simple and yet classic uniforms. One of some of my favorite college football uniforms. No question. Anyway, we digress. Yes, we digress. When my grandpa died, thinking, actually, I am looking forward to heaven. I get to see my grandpa there who I was really close with. And that was the first time I'd ever known somebody really close who had gone on to heaven. Speaking of heaven, when my dad was out, I think I just dropped an eyelash. Oh, there we go.

21:41 Yep, you did. Because you did. Because I did. Hey, guy lashes. What are we going to do? um when my dad was out of it he doesn't you know in those times and he was really between life and death on you know he was being kept alive by machines so to speak he had really a heavenly encounter yeah and um he said he felt like he was about to walk into heaven he could sense the presence of jesus he could he could just feel it and just wanting to go there he said it just felt like perfect peace it just felt like the most amazing thing he could ever imagine and like he would say he was about to go in and all of a sudden he said he heard his family calling to him and he says he remembers me coming and touching his cheek and kissing him that's right which is crazy because he was so i did and he was so unresponsive and uh and he feels like and again this is his story not trying to make theological implications of it it's just his reality and what happened and that he felt like he had a choice whether he could come back and be with his family or go into that peaceful place um which you know you i say that and then you realize that just brings up so many questions why why would my dad have had a chance and to choose between heaven and earth and so many people other people don't and you know for us i have never seen anybody fight a diagnosis, a cancer, anything better than your dad. I mean, your dad was faith-filled, loving. When he was in pain, he was still kind and courteous and always wanted to make space for us and the grandkids and led the church well through it. I mean, he just was a hero.

23:28 Your dad was always heroic in every sense of the way, but he was such a hero when he was fighting. And I think our experience has informed us, like all of our experiences do inform us. I mean, we have to at least acknowledge that. Now, do our experiences lead us? Maybe, hopefully not. Do they inform us? Of course. And I think one of the things that I have felt informed around in watching both dads fight life-altering, life-threatening disease is, for instance, prayer and the dynamic of it and how it works and does it work and what's the point of it. And I think one of the – I have an air that I think I have seen in my own heart and seen in this journey. I don't know if I have what is the error.

24:25 I don't know if I have what is the correction or what is right. But one of the errors is believing that certain ways you pray is what produces answered prayer. Because ultimately that leads me down this sinister pathway that teaches me and informs me that if I pray hard enough or long enough or passionate enough or correct enough or accurate enough, my prayer will be answered. And I think what we've seen in the faithfulness of both of our dads, such noble and great men, is that, hey, your dad prayed faith-filled prayers. My dad prayed faith-filled prayers. And one is alive and one has passed on. And we prayed every day for your dad to be healed. And a lot of the same people pray. And yes, your dad is healed in heaven now.

25:18 He's in this beautiful body that's not broken. But that's not what we were praying for. We were praying for him to be healed here. So we could live life with him. Tonight to go to his grandson's basketball game at high school. Yeah. And God didn't answer our prayers in that way. He answered. He always answers. But does he always answer the way we want him to? My answer to that is no. And I don't know how comfortable the faith community is with that no. I would contest anyone. Who said God always answers prayer? Maybe God always responds to our prayer. Does he answer our prayers? And I think when we say answered prayers, we mean fulfilled requests. And God does not always fulfill our requests. He does not.

26:11 And that's something we have to trust him with. But to say that that's easy for me is quite frankly ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah. And that word you said is so powerful. And that is the word of trust. Yeah. I think so often prayers are faith in the sense of, Hey, this is what we're believing for. This is what we're contending for. This is what we want to be done. But then in the end, there is just an element of simple trust. I know so many people would say, well, you have to be careful what you pray for, because what if God doesn't answer? And we prayed really without, for your dad, really without hesitation without holding back we were just just prayed for it and if you would have cautioned me what if he doesn't get healed like we wouldn't even allow ourselves to have that language in some ways but after your dad passed went to heaven there was a simple trust that i saw in you that was really, I thought, even better than the excitement of faith that came to pass.

27:19 I mean, thank you for saying that. I feel the same in your direction. I find it to be quite presumptuous to assume that this life tells us everything we need to know about God. How could that possibly be? For then, is he really God? So I think over a process of time, and I mean, bear with us, I guess, we're just processing one of the great cosmic questions in human history, and that is life and death and disease and prayer and the divine and providence and one dad lives and one dad dies. I mean, we've talked with people who one baby lives and one baby dies, twins. One kid loves Jesus and the other kid, you know, like, yeah, there's so many analogies. But believes that if there is a God, he's maniacal and evil.

28:13 And you can hardly blame anybody in the equation. But I just think that to make this life everything, currently it's all we know, but that doesn't mean it's everything. And I think as you have loved ones and friends and near and dear ones pass on, your mind starts to naturally wonder what is on the other side. And maybe what's on the other side, at least according to the ancient, most profound book ever existed in human history, which is really unequivocal and undeniable. It really is the sacred scriptures we call the Bible, the story of God. it tells us that there is a place that's forever and that's not here. And I got to tell you, I am thrilled this isn't forever because my neck hurts today. My back hurts today. And I don't, I don't want to be in this neck pain forever. My eyes are getting so bad, like 45 it in my eyes, like my eyesight has. Well, we went on our 24th wedding anniversary dinner and we were at this, you know, moody, hip, cool Venice restaurant. And, uh, yeah, I know, I know what you did.

29:24 You haven't even told me. She took a photo of the menu while I went for a walk because I had sciatica nerve pain in my right leg. We are, what are we? 75 or 45. And so I went for a walk because my, my leg was in so much pain. True story. And Chelsea, I came back later. It's like a couple of days later and I'm looking at our photos on the cloud that we share on our phone. You caught me. And I was like, what is this? And I zoomed in and it was a photo of the menu because now I know on our 24th wedding anniversary, while I was gone, she photographed the menu so she could zoom in on it and see and actually make orders, which is, yeah, I don't want this to be forever. Our eyesight's going, my right leg can't feel it. All right. You know, we're doing better than that. But our bodies are degenerating. And this world is painful and it's filled with calamity and pain and injustice. And horrific treatment of one another and wars and pain and bombs and missiles and guns and it's diseases. And yeah, it's really difficult here. And we want to make the most, I guess this podcast is for people that are here. So let's be careful, but I believe in forever. And I believe that there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

30:38 and I believe the lion and the lamb, the scripture says, will lay down together, meaning that even the animals will be in harmony. Maybe they'll talk. That'd be fun. Oh gosh, I hope so. I want to know what Louie's saying so bad. That'd be so fun. Do you think we would like our pets less though if they talked? They're like, yo, bro, can I get some food? You'd be like, whoa, man. Our Elliot's definitely like, we do not want our dogs to die. We won't like them. I'm like, you know, that's a fair idea. I'm thinking about the prayer that Jesus instructed us to pray every day, you know, which wasn't an actual prayer, but we believe a pattern for prayer. And he starts with our father who was in heaven. And I just wonder if there's something to that, that every day we are supposed to just have a perspective of heaven one way or the other. It doesn't need to be this weird thing, but just to have a moment every day where we acknowledge there is a heaven, there is an eternity, there is a home, and this isn't it. Yeah. Because don't you think, doesn't that read to you when Jesus prays his disciples then go, yo, what was that that you did for so long? That was kind of mesmerizing.

31:37 Considering he did all these miracles and they didn't ask the same thing, basically. Yeah. I mean, he made alcohol for crying out loud. They didn't ask him how to do that. The disciples weren't really around then, but maybe they were. But the point being, it is kind of wild that prayer was so astounding. And they said, hey, how do you do that? And he basically says, start by saying, Father, who is home. The Father has a home and he wants all his kids home. And I see in the Lord's Prayer, heaven reads to me more like home than this celestial place where chubby babies and diapers pick harps. I think it's this. I don't know, but chubby babies and diapers are so cute. Oh, so cute. We want grandkids. So bad. But yeah, I hear Jesus saying, yeah, every time you talk to God, talk to him as a father who's home. And we'll be there soon with him. But in the meantime, communicate. And that has given a lot of perspective.

32:31 Oh, man. I mean, the pain. Changed my life. Yeah, it really did. And it changed your everyday life. Not just your relationship with God, not just how you preach, but it really did change how you live your everyday life. Yep. I have to say, too, I don't think I understood the level of pain that you were in when your dad passed away. I tried. I tried to read books. I tried. And I still don't. Yeah. You know, I lost my father-in-law, your dad, who I loved. I grew up calling him Uncle Wendell. you know so I had my own version of loss but um when I had to say goodbye to my dad and I didn't know if I would see him again I think for the first time I realized wow this is what Judah went through and I just say that to say in life in marriage and relationships when somebody's going through loss they need a ton of grace and as much grace as you think they need they need more. Yeah. And grief is not that thing. Um, for instance, like if you were going to become a particular, uh, tradesman tradeswoman, if you were going to become sportsman sportswoman, there's certain, like you're going to be a dentist. Okay. There's a, there's a process to that grief. As much as there are stages, uh, they don't always go in order. They don't always have the same timeline. They don't always have the same trajectory. They don't always have the same feelings. Some days get jumbled and mixed up and the order gets off. And grief is by nature, a very, very messy emotional state that humans find themselves in. And to this day, I mean, I had a meeting this morning before we turned on the cameras talking about a dear friend of mine that's in grief. And it is, uh, it's really, really difficult to even when you're watching someone in grief or trying to serve someone in grief or help someone in grief, uh, you have to be a really open hearted and open handed, don't you? Yeah. Cause you just never know what the day

34:39 is going to bring. Never know. And you have to let that person walk through that. Cause if my temptation for you was like, I just want you to feel better so that I can feel better. It's very selfish. I know that feeling, yeah. Was that lonely for you? The fact that, I mean, your mom was going through a level of grief. Your sister was going through. I mean, we all were, but did that feel lonely?

35:02 Yeah, it did. It did. And then it felt silly at the same time. Lonely and silly. And what I mean, I remember one of the comments, I've said this before, but somebody on Instagram, which, you know, how relevant is that? Probably not much. But said, all right, Judah, we get it. It was probably a few months after my dad had died. And I probably, I forget what I posted. It's on the internet. No, it was his birthday post. It would have been his first birthday without him. God. No, it was July 15th, his birthday. And so this was like six months after he passed away. Oh, that's right. And it's just a post honoring your dad on what would have been. Wrote a tribute. His 60th birthday. How much I missed him every day. You know, there's that one comment out of, you know, tons that were loving and caring. One comment's like, we get it, bro. you're not the only one that's lost a dad you know move on grow up whatever and it was like oh yeah so yeah so so mean and i'm sure that person's not that mean in real life but it's easy to be mean right internet technology um but but that then you suddenly feel silly for feeling sad and lonely because you're like oh my word i yeah what is wrong with me like People die every day. People lose someone every day. I should feel better because I'm not the only one. And why do I feel lonely when I'm not the only one? Now I feel silly and I'm an idiot and this is dumb.

36:24 And before you know it, you've actually well and truly spiraled down another rabbit hole, which is equally painful, if not more painful, because where you started was, I feel lonely, no one understands, I miss my dad, to, you know, that post spun me into another rabbit hole, which was like, I feel so dumb for posting that and caring and like, oh my word, everybody else is just going on with their life. and why can't I? And I got to get on with it. And, you know, and then well and truly, which I love that statement. I like well and truly. I've been saying that a lot. I like that. It sounds very European. Yeah, I like well and truly much better than what's the saying I don't like. Oh, you don't like. Having said that. Having said that and you also don't like dirty little secret. Yeah, but well and truly I like. You do? Well and truly, I like it. But I was down another hole of, bro, get it together.

37:19 You're an idiot. Oh my God. You're feeling guilt. This happens all the time. People are dying every day. There's wars. There's disease. There's loss. There's cancer. Parents. Come on, bro. Like, just pull yourself out of this. You're feeling guilt and shame for being in grief. That's exactly what it was, yeah. Cool. So that was hard. And I think people probably feel that a lot around loss. But I think the trust you had in God, your perspective of heaven, it's changed you. Yeah. But that's the goal, right? That circumstances of life do change us. And they change our perspective of God. and we're either going to get changed for the better or for the worse. And I just so love who you are. Did you feel silly after, you know, you were on the doorstep, literally, actually, by definition, the doorstep of, hey, the last 15 minutes, please say goodbye to your dad. It was COVID restricted, but nonetheless, it was a doctor saying, you go, sister goes, mom goes, say goodbye. This is, you know, we're talking minutes, days, hours, whatever.

38:18 and then he makes this incredible full recovery. And, you know, dad's back to being dad and his Robert Redford good looks and, you know, his witty comments and card playing and beating us at 313. And do you feel kind of like, oh my word, why did I grieve so hard or no? Oh, that's a good question. Because there are people out there who grieve really hard and then that person makes a recovery and you're like, oops, you know. Does that feel like an oops? It didn't actually. That's good. And I think so much of it is because you never made it feel like an oops. Like you supported me in that. So my dad was in the hospital for eight weeks. So my mom, because they weren't at home, so she was here by herself. So my sister and I took turns week on, week off staying with her. We didn't want her to be by herself. And you never complained, never were selfish, took the kids, took up all the slack of all the stuff I was supposed to be doing and just really stepped up.

39:15 And actually, oddly enough, those are some of my favorite memories with my mom. I think we're all so raw and vulnerable and just, you know, you just laugh and cry. No. So you never made me feel like I grieved or unnecessarily or emotionally. Boy, this part of the conversation might be my favorite. Thank you for saying that. Can I make a comment though from scripture? Yes, please. I do think one of the things that came to me in the process of all of this, I suppose, is how we minimize people's pain because of the outcome. And what I mean by that is Jesus has some really close, call them like friends, but almost like family. It's Mary, Martha, and Lazarus. It's two sisters and a little brother. And the story goes that Lazarus ends up dying. And that's where we get the littlest scripture in all of the Bible, Jesus wept.

40:11 But what's weird about that scripture is that literally a verse or two later, Jesus actually raises Lazarus from the dead and he's no longer dead. He is well and truly alive. And so then you go, wait, well, then why'd you cry? Why'd you waste time crying with Mary and Martha when you knew you were going to fix the pain and the problem? And it occurred to me Um, that because in that moment, the pain is not any less real because a miracle happens and the outcome changes and it's positive. But in that moment, there's pain and there's loss. And I see that on both sides of time and eternity that in this place called time, though my dad is healthy and whole now. And so is your dad. Mine's in eternity and yours is here for the time being.

41:05 It's still painful. and that grief period is not a loss or a waste. It's a time to be honest about what we're feeling as human beings and be alive. Yeah, you said something so profound that we minimize pain because of the outcome. But I think we also tend to minimize pain of somebody else by comparing it to our pain. Which is another way of doing that. Yeah, but you never did that to me. Can I just say, you never said, well, at least you still have your dad in the hospital. You let my journey with my dad be my journey with my dad that was separate from yours with your dad, which is, I probably haven't thought about it, which is really phenomenal and amazing that you did that. And we see, but we see that all over the world of, oh, well, this people or this people group are going through pain, but we can't help it. And we just, we compare pain all day long and we minimize it based on the outcome or based on our personal experience.

42:03 And probably don't have time to get into that because I'd love to conclude in prayer. Can I make one comment about that? Of course, please. Because it's such a... The joy of podcasting. People can stop listening. We can keep talking as long as we want to talk. Come on, some podcast for three hours. Everybody rocks. I think there are so many things that are beyond you and me and certainly beyond my research and study and capabilities, capacity and bandwidth. but pains on this planet that are unspeakable and beyond that, which I can really even wrap my head around. But one of the worst, I suppose, is the comparing to pain. And I think it is one of the things that is quite literally eating us alive from the inside out right now in this world. It's destroying our humanity and our compassion and our empathy. And I wonder if the culprit might be the incessant desire of the human being to belong.

43:06 And so in an effort to belong, we've compared pain and chosen sides. And God is near to the brokenhearted, but that doesn't mean that the father has chosen one child over the other. It just means that he is attentive to one child because one child, because all the people on the planet are the father's children. That when one child is more in pain than the other, as he perceives it, he's there. But by doing that, God, the father never intended to communicate to his children that he prefers one over the other. And I sit here today in light of where the planet is. and to be honest the data and information we we have and maybe shouldn't have completely and i am just going to go on record to say i think one of the most painful things that i can see right now transpiring on this planet is the choosing of sides and by doing that and by comparing pain and making one pain worse than the other pain we are dehumanizing one another and we are lessening the validity value and the eternal significance of each and every human being on this planet.

44:25 And I find it to be one of the most painful practices that any of us participate, even in a small way or a great way. And as we're thinking about our father who was in heaven at home, that's just gotta break his heart. I mean, can you imagine if our kids did that to one or the other? If one kid fell down and broke his hand and the other kid just stood there and watched. Like, well, yeah, but I broke my leg last week or, you know, whatever. I don't, our kids have never broken a bell. Like, are you out of your mind? Are you literally out of your mind right now? I just want you to go comfort you. But yeah, maybe we should have a pain episode. I don't know, this is heavy enough. Yeah, yeah. But I appreciate you saying that. I think the comparing of pain, you know, I know we're, I'm repeating myself, but someone said that's effective communication. But yeah, the comparing of pain is, quite a thought. And I definitely think we keep doing this podcast, not just because we are disseminators of extraordinary data and information or pretend ourselves to be experts of any kind, to be honest. But we do hope that conversations spin off and that people sit and think and process.

45:34 We're all guilty. Come on. We're all guilty. We compare pain all the time. I do. I have friends who are like, man, I'm just hurting so bad. And you're like, oh my God, you have no idea. And your brain just goes there and you're like, try raising three kids. You're like, uh-oh, I just did it. So we're all guilty. First, I'll be first in line to admit that we compare pain. And in some cases, we're actually killing each other as a result. It's that real.

46:03 Will you pray for us with that in mind? Yeah. Pray for me. Pray for you. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. God, we recognize that we do our best down here to consider, converse, commiserate. But we don't have a lot of answers, but we have you. and what we know about you and how you have revealed yourself in the wonderful, perfect person of Jesus is that you are the answer. You are the antidote. You are the source. You are the strength. You are the provision that every person on this planet needs. And so I'm asking, maybe this prayer is the best part of this episode in terms of we're just stopping Chels and I to acknowledge that when it comes to loss and pain and the plight of humanity, we are unprepared and we lack knowledge and wisdom. So give it to us. Take us up on a rock that's higher than ourselves. Help us to see beyond even our pain, our experiences, our path, and help us to see as you see, feel as you feel, think as you think.

47:33 I can't imagine how many people percentage-wise are watching this episode who they themselves are facing a measure of loss and pain that is inexplicable and unlike they've ever experienced before. Be near now to your children all over the world. You said, and I remind you on this day, that you are near to the brokenhearted. So do that. Do that now. Do that here. Do that today. Do that this morning. Do that tonight. Meet with your children. Show them how close you are. Closer than their next breath. And that, in fact, you are the father of us all. You have always been the father. You are the father. and you'll always be the father. And you're consistent, constant, faithful, and true.

48:27 And we can lean on you. That is comfort. And we thank you for that today. Comfort your children. In Jesus' name.