Managing The Opinions Of Others

0:02 Okay, I am so excited about this episode. Okay, so am I. You don't know what it's about. That's true. Just drafting off of my... I'm just so pumped. Just drafting off of... What are you excited about the episode for? Being with you. Aw, thanks. It's... Well, I guess we had a lunch date this week. I was going to say we didn't have a date this week, but we did. We had a nice lunch date on Tuesday. You don't steal my, like, A-G-1 drink. I need that. I know. I have my little protein. I just complimented you. They are a sponsor. And I complimented you. And you were like, oh, you didn't even mean to. No, no, it's just genuine. It's my little protein. I add protein to it. I don't know if that's okay. But it just tastes good. Easy way to do it. Oh, man. I was intermittent fasting. I just took a drink and there's protein in there? Oh, my gosh. It's one sip. There we go. Fasting. Good. And we wonder where your energy went. Okay.

0:56 By the way, what do you do? You just had a breakfast meeting. What do you do in your breakfast meeting if you're intermittent fasting? drink coffee the whole time oh did ever but the other the other guy was meeting with he's not um he's fasting for lent oh that's very beautiful so it worked out no good so it was really just a coffee meeting not a breakfast meeting your count your calendar's wrong true i hate breakfast used to be such a beautiful thing that you and i would share and now we don't so it makes me sad sometimes it does yeah you never told me that i'm telling you right now but i eat breakfast when we go like on special away things don't i yeah i wait till like 11 30 it's like my second breakfast but anyway sorry enough about that yes grateful for the uh ag one thank you um it actually really has been so helpful helpful like part of i really do love it um okay i'm gonna start with a question yes if you what would this is a would you rather you hate these questions oh man i do would you rather have comments negative comments from a hundred people online or one person who was a friend to your face oh one person who's a friend to my face yeah i know it's kind of a depressing question huh yeah it's an easy one though for me yeah i wouldn't even see the hundred.

2:23 Actually, to the point. Wonderful. It's not even close for me. Today we're talking about managing the opinions of others. Oh, man, look at the time. I think I have another meeting I got to run to right now. That's so strange. You said you were excited about this because you're excited to have a conversation with me. No, I'm kidding. This will be great. I think it will be great. Okay. Because if we're really honest, the opinions of others can be one of the biggest stealers of our peace and our joy from our everyday life. That's true. Now, I know, obviously, I want to give a caveat. Caveat? Caveat. I've been struggling with that. Caveat. A caveat? Yeah. I want to give a caveat to the conversation lately. I know you and I probably are a bit more in public than other people are.

3:20 But I would love to focus the conversation not just on public opinion, but on what we see our kids go through, what we see our friends go through, what is happening in a lot of everyday life, which is a lot of people having a lot of opinions about a lot of things, including so many people on social media in life in the world these days. So I'd love to focus it around that if possible. Okay, I like that. You like that? Yep, let's do it. Why, tell me, when I said managing the opinions of others, why do you think your response was immediately to get up and run and leave and go do something else, anything else? Well, certainly you can't manage the opinion of others. But I think what you mean by that title is managing it within your own heart and how it affects you. Because I assure you, you cannot manage the opinion of others. So you can't manage others, period.

4:12 But yeah, I think dealing with the opinion of others. And I, by nature, am a people pleaser. And in all of the therapy that we've done, I have a propensity for codependency. Like, if you're okay, I'm okay. And a lot of things that I continue to be aware of and want to change and grow. Yes, you said you're a people pleaser. What do you mean by that? How would you define that? How does it come out in your life? What are the, I mean, on the surface, pleasing people is kind of, I'm really glad that you went to please me. I think your kids are really glad that you went to please them and make them happy. But yet people pleaser is a, it's a label. It's a thing that is normally said with a negative connotation. Why is that? What is that? What's that mean? Why do you say it like that? Well, I will say that, well, that's kind of leaping ahead in the timeline of what a people pleaser looks like.

5:10 Yeah, I mean, I think, first of all, I want people to like me, but that can come at a really steep cost. And I end up, people pleasing, I think, portrays itself as very selfless, but just like anything else, it can be incredibly selfish. And it's something that you're doing for yourself. I want people to feel like they can fly when they're around me because I think in so many ways they can. That metaphor of fly is I think they can soar and think there's beauty. I think humans are the prize in life. They really are at the point of it all other than God himself. And so I'm passionate about that. But I think oftentimes people pleasing turns into pleasing the public and then discarding the people you live with in private. And I think sometimes my people pleasing has cost us in our marriage. It's cost us in our parenting and our kids.

6:03 And so that's a propensity I've discovered, which is scary and horrifying. But I want to win with people. And that can be a really good thing, especially in the line of work that we chose. So I do like winning with people. But it's not, I think at my age, I'm not always super agreeable. But being agreeable sometimes comes with that. And so then all of a sudden, you're agreeing with everyone. So then you agree with no one. I don't know. Now I'm just going on and on. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I completely agree with your statement that you want to please people and you don't please your family. I will say as your wife, I think. I don't I don't. I think that's a lie. You might be telling yourself that I don't necessarily agree with. All right. Plus, I I I do think you have an incredible gift and you have a I'm going to say a God given gift, which is the gift to feel a room, The gift to feel, whether it's in a meeting or whether you're preaching or at a meal with people, I think you have an incredible God-given gift to feel what others are feeling, to be empathetic and to bring people along in a journey and to do all those things.

7:14 So I think it's a gift more than it is not a gift. Yeah, I appreciate that. But I do think there is a dark side to it, a negative side to it. But I don't want to get into that without celebrating. I think you're incredible in what you do and the way you relate to people and the fact that you care what people think, act, that you can even sense that. I can go into a room. I'm like, ah, great. Literally, how many times have we left a dinner or something? Completely opposite. And you're like, oh, I was kind of getting vibes from this or that. No, it was great. What are you talking about? I thought it was phenomenal. The food was great or whatever. So I want to celebrate you and how incredible I think you are. And I absolutely think you prioritize your family over the opinions of the public. Thank you.

8:07 I just want to say that. I appreciate that. I was going to invert the question, that's all. What are you doing when it comes to managing people's expectations or people's criticism or people's critique? the nice thing is sitting here right now in real time I don't think that this by the grace of God is not a major theme of our everyday life which is probably good we also don't have the largest stage by any means so I think we take that in a pretty sober minded way but that's nice I think about it when I see obviously comparison has always existed since the beginning of time, right? I think of that Bible verse that says, hey, people who compare themselves against other people just aren't smart. It's just not wise, is what the Bible says it. And I think it's like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You want to be happy? You want to be fulfilled? You just can't live your life based on how other people are living their life or in comparison to others. And so I know there is a lot of this in human nature that has always existed.

9:15 But I think our modern day technology has probably provided a microphone to people's opinions or given a platform to people's opinions. And not just our opinions about life, although we could get into opinions about life and politics and health. And I mean, if there is a topic out there, there is an opinion about it on the internet. Okay, this is so embarrassing to admit. I've really actually just discovered the helpfulness of Reddit when trying to find answers to problems or questions? Have you ever spent much time on Reddit? I don't think I even know what Reddit is. Okay, I'm glad I'm the only person.

9:54 Serena Williams' husband invented it, right? Oh, that's cool. Or was the CEO of it? I've heard the term Reddit. I actually truly do not know what Reddit is. Is it about reading it, Reddit? it? No, it's, uh, I had a medical question that I asked, you know, as we do, who goes to doctors anymore when you have safari, you know? And, and one of the things, and I wasn't, I wasn't able to find the answer I was looking for. And then I saw somebody had posted a thing and clicked me over to Reddit. And then it was all these people sharing their stories, their experiences about, about the same thing, you know, I don't know, random thyroid problem. And I was like, oh, all these other people feel this way too? So it was a really great conversation for them. I have no idea if it's used for other things. Again, you and I are pretty- It's funny. I saw someone a couple of days ago and I said, I think smoking cigars thins my hair.

10:49 I just can't smoke cigars because it thins my hair. And this person is actually at a doctor's office and she was like, did you just get that on Reddit? And I was like, oh, I don't know what Reddit is. And I was like, no, it's just on the internet. She's like, yeah, Reddit. And I was like, no, there's just an article I read that agreed. Oh, it was an article. Okay. Right. Like Reddit was immediate. I figured it was some sort of like communication system. I can't imagine what it's like to be a doctor right now. And everybody comes in with all of their thoughts and ideas. Yeah. All the things that they've already read on the internet. She's just like. She's like, don't you dare tell me what you know from. I get it. I get it. Got it. I totally played it off. Like I knew what she was talking about. This happened a couple of days ago. So, God, I actually think it was yesterday. No, you know. But Reddit just being one example of so many forums where people's opinions have a platform. That normally your platform for your opinions would be as large, not normally, 50 years ago.

11:48 Unless you wrote an editorial to the newspaper, you know, a letter to the editor, whatever. Think of it. Your platform for your opinions was as large as your circle and sphere of influence that you actually build. people who you're actually in face-to-face relationship with, and you could share your opinions there, but they didn't really go much further than that. Now we live in a world where here I am trying to find some random thyroid information, and I find strangers' opinions who I have no idea if they're accurate or not. And they definitely don't have any credentials to tell me about this medical thing I was looking for, about how to take this, if this medicine can combined with that or whatever. But here I was, I read all of them because it was interesting to me. I'm like, is this reaction from whatever? So I do think opinions of other people have just played a bigger role in our everyday lives. And I do think that is a new phenomenon to human history. And I look at our kids who are trying to discover who they are as human beings, searching for their identity. I think of leaders right now who are trying to lead through so many public opinions. I think of moms who are trying to parent and you can go through and find opinions on, do I feed my kid this or that? Do I discipline this way or that way? And just so many opinions out there. It can be very difficult to navigate and manage. And I would love to, with this episode, just give people some thoughts and some frameworks to have a plan for managing opinions before you get to the opinions so that they have already had their proper place in your life. You've already made a decision, hey, this is the box where opinions go. Does that make sense do you think that would be helpful or is that or we're just going to waste people's time here i mean you better say i think it's going to be helpful but well i think it's going to be greatly helpful because i think people are treating opinions like the main dish and maybe at best

13:56 they're an appetizer um or dessert maybe dessert is a better term because it comes after the the main dish but yeah i mean i think when the when the the opinions of people become the main dish that you eat from, whoo, man, that is a slippery slope. A lot of metaphors I'm throwing in here. But when it's the dessert, it's like sometimes you have dessert, sometimes you don't. I think if you have dessert with every meal, which that used to be a thing in the 80s and 90s, but we did have a week. It was like four days with our friends. We were on a trip away and we had dessert every night and it was like, oh my God, I'm going to get addicted. I can't do this. No, you know the worst part was when we came home. Oh, we were. I've still wanted a dessert. Yeah, I still want one right now. So it's crazy how quickly your body gets addicted. You can't have a dessert with every meal. You need a meal most days, if not every day. But yeah, I don't think the opinions of people are a meal.

14:52 I think at best they're a dessert. And sometimes that's really helpful. Sometimes it's really hurtful, but it was kind of fun to have it and then you move on. So you can't live on dessert. You can't live on people's opinions. You just can't. Yeah, but I know for us, our strategy probably 15 years ago was just ignore them. Yeah. Was just ignore people's opinions about us. Ignore opinions about, you know, all the things that I covered earlier. Well, I have a good scripture to share. Oh, I don't know how realistic of a strategy that is in 2024. Yeah. I think we get so much of our information from social media. We get our connection from there. And there is not a mechanism that can separate out, oh, I just want to get news from my social media, not opinions about other things. There's just no way to separate it out. So I think we just need to have an internal strategy and a plan for how do we handle opinions.

15:51 And I don't have time to do good treatment on the context and can't remember, but beware when all men speak well of you. I think in that premise, I can't remember where that is in the scriptures, but that premise. I think that's Jesus. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I can't remember where it is in the Gospels, is what I meant to say. But that statement made by Jesus is, wow, wait a minute. Don't beware when all men speak well of you. So you're going to hear what people say about you. And if it's all good, well, hold on a second. There's going to be days where you're going to get feedback, and some of that feedback needs to be challenging, needs to be people. You stand up for transcendent truth in your life and live by some conviction, there's going to be some people that aren't going to like it. And this idea that if you win with everybody, maybe you win with no one. So I do think even in the words of Jesus, there is evidence that, hey, you're going to hear.

16:51 I love the premise. I really do. And I love these ideas of non-realistic approaches to things like this. It's like, I just never listen to other people. I don't care what people think. Well, that visceral response tells me you might care more than you think. It's like, there's no God. There's no God. There's no God. Bro, you're the one that keeps saying God. Like, I think you're kind of obsessed with God. So I do think there is this visceral premise out in culture that's like, I don't care what people think, bro. I don't care at all. It's like, I actually think you're the person that cares the most. You're going to hear what people think. And what people think affects us all. So let's take a moment. Let's take an episode and let's talk about it. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that because I think that another strategy, ineffective strategy, is just to tell yourself, I don't care what people's opinions are. It's not effective. It's not effective.

17:43 It's just not. We're human. We're all human. We all do. God designed us and built us for community. And part of living in community is caring what other people think, is listening to other people, of caring about opinions. And so to just say, I'm just not going to care about people's opinions anymore, I think is a very ineffective, poor, short-sighted, not actually going to work strategy. And if you're out there listening to this episode right now and you're like, no, I truly don't care. You have to at least admit you selectively celebrate people who don't give a, right? In culture, we're like, dude, I love that guy. He doesn't give a. Selectively, you mean that. Listen, there is no human alive. And that's your perception based on what they wanted you to see. Yes, but there's no human alive that goes, I love the person who never cares at all about anything. That's so selective because there's always going to be environments where the person who cares the most is the person we appreciate.

18:46 So even that kind of bravado in the culture, at least Western culture, that's like, people that don't give two flying flips about whatever, that's selective in and of itself, though. We mean like the sports person who fights the whole system and gets booed in a stadium and doesn't care and still performs. Sure, we love that. But you want him or her to go home and care about their family or their kids. You know, so we're very selective with that bravado and that concept and culture, which I think, you know, you don't have to. But as our listeners or even ourselves sitting here right now, we have to kind of own that. Like even that whole genre of people that are like, dude, we're about not caring what people think. Yeah, but at the same right, there's some moment or minute in your day where you're actually so wonderfully celebratory of someone who actually does care what you think. So I love podcasts like this who are like, we're going to teach you how not to care what people think, except we're doing a podcast where we hope that you care enough about our podcast and what we're saying and what we think to listen to our podcast.

19:53 So let's be realistic. Let's be realistic. I also think another completely ineffective strategy for dealing with opinions, which I think so many of us do subtly, and it is chasing an empty goal, And that is thinking, if I can get enough people to love me or like me or speak well of me, then I won't care about people who say things against me. I wish it worked like that. Right. Tell me if this has blown your mind. All our friends, it doesn't matter who they are, negative opinions and comments from people still hurt. they still matter. There still is a weight that they carry, no matter how many people love you, adore you, are fans of you, follow you, think you're incredible. And part of me does wonder in a generation coming up, if some of the desire for fame is actually a desire for if I get enough people to love me, if I get enough people to care what I have to say, if I get enough positive opinions about me, then the negative opinions won't matter.

21:09 Do you think that's a driver at all? And do you think that is a goal that is actually a lie? Because it never really happens. Well, it's definitely a lie. And I think in all of not only our experiences, which is minimal, but the experience of being able to serve, help, aid, encourage and befriend people with extraordinary platform, you come to discover one very simple truth. So like if we turn this episode into why not to be famous, okay, if that was the, this would be my strongest presentation to anyone who would sit across this table right now and say, no, I really want to be famous. By the way, nothing inherently wrong. You want to be famous. Great. I just read an article on Leonardo DiCaprio. God bless him. You know, awesome actor.

22:01 And, you know, he was a child actor. And he, you know, Growing Pains and all, you know. Oh, I forgot he was on Growing Pains. Remember? Yeah, yeah, wild. And, you know, he wanted. Wait, was he Growing Pains or was he? No, yeah, no, he was on Growing Pains, yeah. Oh, that's crazy. And other shows as well. Oh, wait, Growing Pains. That was the Kirk Cameron show, right? Yeah. He was like the cousin or something? Yeah, he would always like just suddenly appear in the kitchen or something, hanging. Was he the neighbor or the cousin? Phenomenal actor. I forgot about that. But, you know, by all accounts in this article, which could be totally false, but he wanted to be well-known, wanted to be a well-known actor and did become that. But it's funny, all of the individuals who have world-renowned, there's one truth that is true about all of them. And that is the more you become known, something else increases. the critique yeah with that critique is positive critique but there is always negative critique and the more you are known this is just a fact of human existence you will have more insert the cultural term haters which is not my favorite but you will have negative press and negative just by the sheer human propensity to tear someone down when they are up.

23:16 And so we don't sell that when we sell fame. We don't sell that when we give young people aspirations to be a big deal. But that is the absolute, undebatable, undeniable fact. And so today, by doing this episode, we're also saying, listen, if you want influence, you want sway and you want impact in the world and culture, undoubtedly it comes with criticism. And criticism is very real. And if we aren't careful, criticism can easily lead to shame and feelings of feeling ashamed. I heard a story recently that if it wasn't published in a really boring journal, i probably wouldn't have believed it you know like the medical journals and the scholarly journals that have to be peer revered peer reviewed and other people have to make sure everything in it is factual this wasn't like a blog story this was actually in a journal um that in aboriginal australia hundreds of years ago in in certain cultures they had their their cultural norms and tribal, you know, there's no government. So tribes would have governed themselves. They were self-governing, which is great.

24:38 If somebody stepped outside of the norms of the tribe, somebody did something to hurt somebody else, do you know what their punishment was? The tribal leader would honestly just say to the offender, shame on you. That's where we got that? I'm sorry. I don't know if that's the exact, if that's the exact, But do something to say, you are now shamed in this cult. You are shamed in this tribe. For how long? Listen to what happened. Now, again, would not believe it if I didn't read it in a… On Reddit. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. On a reputable source. Without fail, by the next morning, that person, nobody touched them. Nobody put anything in their food. Nobody did anything to them. that person did not wake up the next morning. They were dead.

25:33 What? That in that culture and something in our human makeup and psyche, shame is that powerful that it would override the physical systems of our body to say, you're not living anymore. And even though we don't have a culture of honor and shame anymore, which is what I was studying, But that makeup on the inside of us is still a huge part of who we are. That when people put shame on us, when people put, I was going to say throw shade on us. I've never said that before in my life. Throw shade. Wow. Never said that before in my life. But it does something physically on the inside of us. And that is so real. Yeah. Do you agree? I do agree.

26:25 And I think one of the things that makes the news about Jesus so important to me, and I don't intend this podcast is not in good faith, is not set up to proselytize. That's not the goal of this podcast. But the most transcendent truth I've ever experienced and the realest person I've ever known is Jesus. And his teachings led the early church formulators and writers and thinkers. You know, we get that mystical scripture in the New Testament. There is now therefore no shame, no condemnation for those who have accepted the sacrificial life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. And so that in quite truly when it comes to following Jesus, we are forbidden to use shame as a tactic and a tool. And yet so much of our cultures and constructs and countries are affected deeply and profoundly. by shame and shame is very powerful.

27:26 And shame is what sociologists have studied has been used for thousands of years and generations to control, to control, which is really amazing to me. People say that Christianity is a religion of control, but we actually look at it and say, no, that is a, it is a system of removing shame, which is removing one of the most powerful external controllers that exist in culture and society that's the goal that's that's the goal but not hasn't always been perfectly perfectly executed but thinking about that the you know opinions of people and that shame and the detriment of it i i didn't say that story to be dramatic although it is a isn't that very dramatic oh my words the most dramatic story i'll hear in the next several days but to emphasize the need for we need to know how we are going to handle the opinions of other people yeah otherwise it could eat us alive opinions of others could eat us alive and literally destroy us and you don't have to be an expert to wonder that the increase in mental health problems is there a correlation i don't know if there's one scientifically but i also don't think it takes a whole lot of common sense to say there has to be right there has to be a correlation between the increase in teen suicide and anxiety and depression and in the increase of free-flowing opinions that are happening in our world so we've said a bunch of strategies that we think don't work. I didn't know that came the most traumatic story. I feel like that's kind of a bummer.

29:09 Let's get into some strategies that we think do work, some things to think of it, because I would really love for us to all be able to have, hey, here's where I'm going to put opinions in my life. Here's what I'm, they exist. It's out there in the world. We can't run away from it. We can't pretend, you know, we can't ignore it. We can't just say, oh, it doesn't affect me. We can't say, oh, I'm going to get so much love that these negative opinions aren't really going to do anything for me. Right. So what are we going to do with opinions? Well, not that I asked one of my sons, if I could share this story, but, uh, late, uh, recently in an evening when you were fast asleep, uh, one of my sons and your son, uh, was down here in this very room and we had a conversation and it started like this. He said, uh, dad, how many people do you think know you really know you even to the almost to the extent that you know yourself whoa how many people really know you and i said not very many um he said okay he said how many people do you think are in your life that are trying to get to know you because they're truly interested in you and they love you wow such deep questions from i mean i how many of the people that are trying to get to know you are trying to get something from you And so I paused, kind of like I was just punched in the stomach, obviously realizing some of what our children are going through.

30:43 But I don't think this is exclusive to the Smith kids. I think this is true of the world we live in. I think everyone seems to have the gift of suspicion these days. And my answer reveals a solution. I said, not very many. which I've already outlined. And I said, you know, son, you're going to figure out, I said at 45, I have figured out that one of the most painful things is people that you think are getting to know you for you because they love you. Come to find out they were around and they got to know you because they got something from you. That's not inherently wrong, by the way. But that is, I would say that's the majority of people. It's tough if you don't know that up front. If you know up front that, hey, this is going to be a transactional relationship here.

31:38 And you know the T word came up. Yeah. If you know it up front, it's not bad. Because it's a mutually agreed upon set of terms that you both know what you're going on entering into. But if one person has different expectations than the other, that can be devastating. And I think my personality, similar to this child of ours, that my personality is prone to just believe that everyone loves me for me. And that's just not how the world works. So I shared with him and I said, you know, that list has gotten smaller as I've gotten older. And I outlined some friends. He's like, I figured you'd bring up so-and-so and so-and-so. People that really don't need anything from you but love you. That's taking shape in our life for sure. and he said oh thank god you answered the question like that because i would have thought i was crazy if you said oh a bunch of people know me well because i don't feel known by a lot of people and i do feel like there's a lot of people that say they want to get to know me but they just want something from me and that's okay i say that to say i think one of the tactics tactic is the wrong term, one of the approaches to dealing with the opinions of people. We could have a separate episode on dealing with the opinions of the masses to assume that all of us have masses of people with opinions about us. It's probably a little bit inebriated. I think there's only probably a handful for most of us alive today. We don't have paparazzi that follow us around. So most of us, It's a handful of people.

33:18 That's why I think this practice that my son and I discussed the other night is appropriate. It's being willing, and maybe this is by yourself, to delineate a little bit. And it's not the easiest of things. To kind of outline from best of your ability, people will let you down. It's okay. And I'm one of those people that will let people down. We're all going to let everybody down because we're human. But if you make a distinction and delineation of like, okay, here's the people I think that are kind of getting to know me for me because they care about me and they're interested in me. And then here's a bunch of people that are also great people too, but it's more transactional. And all I would say is this. This other list of people that you think are really invested in you for you and they love you and they're interested in getting to know you. the opinions of these individuals can be hugely helpful in life the challenge becomes if i could be so bold the transactional people because oftentimes they're trying to get something from you these are the opinions i like i like the transactional relationship opinions flattery there it is because it's it's it's it's not they haven't seen the whole you they don't know they're trying to get something out of you.

34:34 And that's okay. Even if what they're trying to get out of me is a really fun hour coffee, it's like, man, let's just pump them up. And listen, I think oftentimes the majority of these people, transactional people, also have pretty good motives and it's all good. Like it's no problem, but it is transactional. Now over here, when you get compliments and things, it's very weighty. But over here, what you'll find is oftentimes someone who really loves you for you will also challenge you. because they care enough about you. They're just not trying to get something from you. So I would say, and I'm trying to just be as really as practical as I possibly can, which is not always incredibly practical, but if you can set up a system in your life, however you do that, and maybe you can help us with that, where you kind of pull the people that are really in your life because they care about you, not necessarily to get something from you. We're all getting something from each other.

35:27 You know what I mean? But I think this will help you combat the opinions that will float in and out of your life from people that maybe don't know you or don't want to get to know you or feel the same way about you? Okay, I haven't told you about this either, like telling stories about life. So a couple weeks ago, I was in a therapy session and get so annoyed. But something came up that was really meaningful for me. so a couple days later trying to express my emotions more so i was at a dinner with a girlfriend and i was telling her what happened and and she said something not meaning to but that really made me feel a little bit dismissed in a little it just it hurt me so we next week or two later meeting with my therapist again and i told her what had happened and she said well did you mention anything to your friend about it? I said, no, I just didn't want to, like, I just felt too vulnerable in the moment. I just, I, I just didn't. She goes, well, would you consider doing, would you consider bringing that back up to her? And she goes, here's why I think you should do that.

36:40 She said, however, however your friend responds or doesn't respond, isn't up to you. She goes, now you need to be, use your words careful and make sure that you aren't accusatory and don't get, you know, defenses up. But she's like, I'm pretty sure you're pretty good at that. You'd married for 25 years. But she said, whatever her response is, is you just get to use that for information for the future of the friendship to know kind of what, she didn't say category, but to go back to your illustration, what category this person goes into to know how much of yourself do you entrust this person to? And interestingly, I had that, I haven't even told you this, I had that follow-up conversation. And of course, his friend was like, I'm so sorry. I never would have meant to hurt you or be dismissive. Thank you so much for telling me that. It means so much that you opened up. And just very much responded in a way to me that, okay, whoa, I can trust her. But so often, if we are just trying to play nice and we're never even, not even confrontational, but for me, it's not being vulnerable, not being open and honest.

37:48 We can never actually tell how much we can trust people to know. Because I'm guessing what our son was asking you and what you're picking up on is, if somebody really knows me, then their opinion of me is valid. If somebody doesn't really know me, then I think I could kind of dismiss it. But sometimes we don't have a system to know how much we let people in in one way or the other. Would you agree with that? Yeah, yeah. I think that's incredibly profound. And I also think, you know, that therapist is so right. And I think where I circumvent the system is instead of responding to that person's quib or real quick response that was kind of hurtful, I just internalize it and hope for the best. but it is interesting with functionality and healthy back and forth, you can kind of delineate between who's who.

38:51 And again, I just really urge no one to demonize the category of people that are trying to be in your life and get to know you because they also want a little something from you. I think transactional relationships can be oftentimes far more healthier than ambiguous ones. Yeah. As long as they're agreed upon. I think when it comes for strategy opinions, I agree. I hear you saying, get people, know the people who know you.

39:20 And actually trust and lean on and value their opinion. Yep. Because that does matter. It does. I also think beyond knowing the people who know us, we need to know what the truth is. I use a story of Grace. I'm pretty sure I could tell this story. Poor kids.

39:40 She had been in a different school through COVID and moving in different circumstances. She had been in a different school. Third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade. Sixth grade was COVID. Sixth grade was all online through COVID. So seventh grade, she was at that same school, but in person for the first time, which really felt like a different school in sixth grade. Truly. Or sorry, no, in seventh grade. And then that school lost their lease, and so it was shutting down. And so she was going to have to go to another school for eighth grade and then have to start another school for high school. So she was just at a place. I mean, that's a lot of change at an age where humans are changing so quickly and so fastly in a time in the world. Think about COVID time when so much was changing. And so even though Grace is so social, so like loves everything about going to school. She's the kid who's excited the first day of school and bummed the last day of school.

40:35 we decided uh you know what let's let's keep her at home and do online school for her this year and there are just a couple things we were like i don't know if she really knows who she is yet i think she needs to get her foundation of her identity established a little bit more and so she did that year online school honestly probably hated every day of it if we're being honest and had the worst grades even though she's like a straight a student now but just because it wasn't the best environment for her. But what is fascinating to me, what's come out of it now she's out of that eighth grade year and into her freshman year is how much she and I talk. And she talks about knowing herself and how much she wants friends who know themselves. I just, I say that to say, for whatever reason, our daughter needed that time. She needed a year, honestly away from opinions so that she could establish a foundation of truth that then she could filter opinions through and weigh them against. And here's what I am afraid for when it comes to opinions. If we just live our life on opinions and don't have any foundation of truth to compare them to, we are going to have a society and a culture and a family and friends who are so swayed by opinions that can, whether they're high or low, whether they're good or bad, in riding those waves of opinions is just going to lead us into a very unstable, unsustainable society and culture, right? Whereas if we can have a foundation of truth. So since then, Grace has had a few things this year where people have said certain things about her.

42:17 And she's like, but you know what? I know it's not true because I know this is true about me. and I know that's true about me and I know who I am. And so because she has had that foundation of truth, there is a strength and a stability inside of her that is able to withstand opinions. Now, they're still emotional. They're still hard. It's still tough when girls at school are talking about you, whatever. But they don't move her beyond that, which she can handle. You know, I go back to our Reddit example. And I was really grateful for all the things that the doctors said about or you know that people said about their experience with how to take this certain thyroid medication but at the end of the day you know what i went back to you're gonna laugh at me i found i literally had to pull out of the garbage can you know how many good a new medication it comes from the pharmacy with instructions with instructions but like all the little detailed instructions that are like a hundred pages long not really that long but it's like tiny font printed front back I literally had to go back and read all of those.

43:20 No one's ever read those. But I did because I didn't want to take it wrong. Yeah. Because I wanted it to work. Hey, going back to your example, how do you think people, you know, for Grace, it was that year off online school. And which was like torture for her. But yeah. That she's now grateful for. Yeah. How do people then establish who they are, know who they are? Well, and that's the going back that my medical analogy that you taught me from is you have to determine what your source of truth is. And for me, for that thyroid medication, it was the booklet that came from the pharmacist. Like that was a foundation of truth for me. Wow. For us, for you and I, I mean, I think when it comes to what we believe, we believe our source of truth is what God says about us. and if we don't know that if we don't have that foundation if that's not a reality of our everyday life then opinions are going to be really hard would you agree with that as a source of truth yeah yeah absolutely and what keeps me when people have differing opinions of what we should do with our time and our day and our life and our location and all that um is this is what god's asked us to do and to work with him and walk with him and watch how he does it is an honor and a thrill and a privilege. But yeah, I mean, I think that has kept us through, you know, this last week I had a call with a peer and a pastor and I just kind of threw me for a loop and I was like, oh man, what does that even mean? And have I made too many crazy decisions and what's going on with our life and whatever, but got back to this is what I have felt God's asked us to do. And, and, um, you know, I just urge people. I think oftentimes conversations like this, people like us, they're like, oh, it's the Bible, it's the Bible. Well, Jesus said to the Torah specialists of his day, he said, you know, you think you have life because of your memorization of the Torah. But it points to me. I am the life, I am the way, I'm the truth.

45:25 And so I think the Bible, yes, of course, it tells us the story of God that we're living in. but knowing him, you know, feeling his nearness and his love and his affection every day, um, is a, is a big part about knowing who we are and, and helps us to take the path that God's called us to, even when there are critics, uh, asking us why we took that path. Or people who don't know, we don't understand or misunderstand or don't want to know. And won't know. And it's, and that's okay that they don't. They got their own lives. I think about our kids and what they go through at school every day. I mean, they're just, they, they wade through a lot of opinions every single day. Every single day. One practical thing I would like to throw out is, and I think about that year that Grace took. Obviously, she's 14. It worked for her for that time and that season. Yeah. But I do wonder if there are people out there who need to take a time away from opinions. Ooh.

46:22 Take a time to shut them down, quiet them. Totally believe that. I'm stretching my neck because that really. I know. I know. remember your dad always used to do this yeah you do this like you it's like it's like your version of what he used to do i love it um take a time away from opinions i agree so that you can really get down into a foundation of truth who am i what do i believe and who are the people who know me that i can trust yep get those things answered established rooted firm unwavering unmoving and then opinions will come and go and they will still hurt because we're still human. But hopefully you will have a sense of stability and a foundation to handle those, to put, like you said,

47:09 opinions, not as the main course, but to put them in their place. Would you agree with that? Yeah. I did an exercise with some friends that's really been helpful. And that is what are the, what are the values? You know, who am I? If I could make them, you know, five values, seven values, 10 values. Here's what we live by. Here's who we are. Here's what we believe. That's a, no matter where that lands for you, that's a, I think a worthwhile practice, no matter what, even if you read it like a year later and you're like, that's not who I am. And those aren't my values. You know, it still gets, gets you going. And I think it's well worth your time and attention. And I wrote out what I think is the Smith values and who we are, what we're about, what we do. We made up a saying, we're kind and encouraging and we look for lonely people. That was before Zion went into first grade. Can you believe how long ago that was? Kind of encouraging. Look for lonely people. Okay. And on that note, I'll have to ask if she'll let me share it. But in that year, Grace wrote out a list of truths and affirmations that she has hanging on her mirror. Yeah, it's so cool. It's like, I am loved. I'm fearfully made.

48:13 I'm a boss. Some things from scriptures, some things from who she knows to be true about herself that are uniquely her. And I know I can see that has just given her a strength in that sense. And so however, it's different for everybody. I think everybody, for you, values works, for grace affirmations work, for me, principles are something that guide me. So I think we all need to figure out what works in our own personality. But quieting the other things so that we can really listen and develop and create that sense of who we are. Yeah. And so that we can go, go back out to the world of opinions that is the world that we live in and, and be okay with it, not be swayed, not be moved and, um, not be shamed to death and, and live out who we're supposed to be. Cause we're all incredible. Yeah.

49:04 I, I, I know we're coming to a close, but I, I agree with you. I think, oh, you get too many voices in your head and it's hard to hear the, the one true one. um so yeah i think taking a break is probably like if if you were to ask me because i know you like thinking like this what's the best takeaway from this episode i mean it really is like man what if you took a break from listening to all the noise and all the voices and you listened for god's voice and you listened for your own thoughts and discovered again maybe rehearsing again revisiting again or maybe for the first time and determine the voices of friends that you can listen to because i don't believe that this is just an isolated experience not at all not at all um and and give yourself a lot of credit this is no small task most people in their whole lifetime never do this they just never do it because it's it's work it's work and it's probably something that we need to get refreshers on every once in a while you know i don't know if it's annually yeah i was just gonna say i don't know if it's a one and done thing but um i love that would you like to close would you like to pray for everyone i would okay thank you I would. Thank you. God, thank you for life. Thank you for the brief moment we are here on earth.

50:20 You made us community beings. So we are interconnected. As a result, we hear voices, so many voices from different people and friends and loved ones and relatives and family members. And sometimes our head spins down here, wondering who we are, where we're going, what we believe. I ask for everyone listening that you would grant them the strength and the stillness to hear and listen and be reminded and revisit again who they are, who you've called them to be, who you've made them to be and designed them to be. help us to know what opinions to take very little and lightly and what opinions to weigh heavily help us with that distinction that would be so wonderful in all of this i can imagine there are people listening right now whose lives have been so deeply and adversely affected by the critique and criticism of those around them.

51:26 Maybe their heart seems to be shattered in a million pieces because they thought they were being some incredible human only to discover that so many people around them see fault and problems and issues and pain. Be near to that person now. Strengthen them, encourage them, and put them back together again and remind them how precious and valuable they truly are. Thank you for the moments we share together and for many more yet to come. Amen.