Navigating Doubt

0:02 Okay, as we start this episode, I want you to go back in your mind, in your mind's eye, to a time, a time where the world was different. I don't know where I'm going with that. Can you remember, obviously you and I grew up in church, you got saved when you were five years old. I did. I also got saved. It was an altar call and adultery. I also got saved when I was five years old because my sister had gotten saved. I don't know why I'm using air quotes. And I just, I don't know. Because I think, anyway.

0:36 Because you're always being saved. That's why you're doing air quotes. But we've turned it into like one significant moment. But my sister got saved and she could have communion. And I really wanted to have communion. Oh my goodness. Wow. We have started this podcast episode with a very deep communal concept except in the Christian community. I know, but it's my life. It's my story. What are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about it? You wanted to have the cracker and the grape juice. I did. So you had to confess. But I really have encountered Jesus in my life. Yes, you have. I can confirm. Not just for the communion anymore. But you and I, growing up in church the way that we did, truly, I mean, we could also go to our life and talk about the incredible encounters and moments we had with Jesus and knowing that he was real. And there's incredible stories, I think, that you and I tell along those lines often on this platform. But today, I want to start off this podcast to see if you can remember the first time you doubted God.

1:39 Either his existence or his reality or his actions. How old were you? What was the setting? What was the scenario? Bring it. is that white wine you're drinking? It 100% looks like Chardonnay or Peter Grigio. I wish it was. Oh, yeah, I didn't know if that's where we're at now with this podcast. It's like, you're just going to drink right during the podcast? Maybe I will. Hey, you know what? What? If we get a good enough wine sponsor, I'm so down to do this. Yeah, if you are out there, well, I don't drink. I don't want to brag, but we are looking for a wine sponsor. No, this is a kombucha that does not sponsor us, and so it is in a clear glass with some ice. You know what? It makes me think of Kathie Lee and Hoda. Kathie Lee Gifford and Hoda. I love you both so much. The Today Show. Such legendary women. Remember drinking wine in the morning? It was so cool.

2:30 Do you think it was really wine? I love those ladies. I always wondered. I never had the guts to ask. Kathie Lee, come on. Did you ask? She's a friend. When you were on the Today Show, did you ask? Were they actually wine? Did you go smell the glass? I didn't. Oh, I can't confirm that. I don't know if I did. I know. I love those ladies so much. They were such a great morning combo. I mean, the today's show is still awesome, but I just miss those. What an incredible woman of faith. Kathy Lee Gifford, just an incredible lady. Such a hero. I love her so much. A woman before her time. Truly. Are you stalling to remember her time when you doubted? No, no, I remember. What is it? Kombucha. Oh, I want some kombucha. Oh, there's some left over. There is? Yeah, I didn't pour the whole thing in here. Amazing, amazing. Okay, I'm going to ask my friend, Wes Haliburton, right over here, Wes, which is the glass. I remember very specifically when I doubted, I was 12 years old, Twin Rocks, Bible camp. You were so cute when you were 12.

3:26 I had a side spike. I was literally just about to, I was just about the little side spike. Dude, that side spike was nasty. Yeah. That thing was real. You wore it well. I had a lady who is new to our community, thank you so much, who came with a friend recently, a couple Sundays ago in Seattle and her question, she practices a different faith, but she's like, I got to know, were you cheesy in high school? Were you a nerd? And I looked at her and I said, absolutely not. Even though I love nerds, by the way, and nerds run the world. But yeah, I mean, would you like to go on record to say that I was- You have always been cool. Yes. Like unequivocally. And I- Well, that's a close, folks. Thanks for coming to this episode to podcast number 29. And you could put coolness or not coolness down to a lot of things. In my, wow, we are so off topic.

4:18 So off topic. In my 45 years old, do you know what it has come down to for me? What? Elliot and I were watching iRobot the other day. Oh. I love that. And Will Smith, who's also one of the coolest people of all time, he just has a watch that is just undeniably. Yeah. I mean, if anybody wants to know what a cool walk looks like, just get, just, i just i robot and that scene right anyway yeah you have always mr beaver has such a cool walk and you have always had a very cool walk even when you were 12 in your little side spike and you were doubting god saying that i was doubting god so i was 12 years old twin rocks bible camp in portland oregon well on actually the coast of oregon uh not far from tillamook oregon yeah when she's factory that was always a big oh man remember i did that i did i used to tell that in a sermon because you finally got after a week back in our day we had camp for a week after a week of camp food you could go and get tillamook ice cream all the ice cream tillamook ice cream is still out there oh chocolate tillamook chocolate peanut butter ice cream and get out get out all the malice with almond unbelievable and and ben and jerry's cherry garcia my top three favorite ice creams yeah nobody asked it's like we're doing an infomercial ice cream i would like to talk about my three favorite ice creams yeah those were good times man. All right, Judy here. Let's talk about being healthy. I'm not going to lie. I do not feel like I am a very great example at all. I'm always looking for cracks in the code. What's the cheat?

5:49 What's the shortcut? All those things is basically how I live. And I wish I worked out more. I wish I took vitamins. I wish I took care of my body more. But I do try to eat pretty clean. And ladies Ladies and gentlemen, AG1 has come to my rescue. One little scoop every single day at approximately for me, it's like 2 p.m. I do a little intermittent fasting. I don't want to brag. And I first gave it a try because I was looking for a simple solution that would just kind of knock out all of the vitamins and all the nutrition that I needed. I feel really energized. I actually do. I feel strong. I also feel like super proud of myself. And it's a habit. and it's become a really productive habit for me. So this is me on this podcast telling you for real, try AG1.

6:41 You can get a free one year supply of vitamin D3, K2 and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase exclusively at drinkag1.com backslash ingoodfaith. Again, that is drinkag1.com backslash ingoodfaith. Guys, try it. I am so serious. It's actually helped. It really is a cheat code. So there you go. Good times. But yeah, I was 12 years old. And I think my dad, my dad was probably there. I think he might have even been speaking. And then his friends, you know, because family and friends were always the pastors and the leaders of the retreat or the camp or the conference or the convention or the advance. and suddenly it dawned on me, wait a minute, do I actually believe any of this? And it was jarring. It was terrifying.

7:34 We went on a beach walk that night after chapel and even on the beach walk. Beach walks are my favorite and I was always like, I always. You wore my sweatshirt when you were in the beach walk. Penn State? This actually does have a little alcohol in it, kombucha. Oh, it's not hard kombucha. No, but I mean. Do I say kombucha? I think it's kombucha. Kombucha or kombucha? Kombucha. Oh, you're right and I'm wrong. I hate that. No, this by nature has a little bit of alcohol. A little bit of fermentation. I'm not a drinker anymore, but you know. So, oh my God, nobody wants to hear that. On beach walks, I always knew where you were at. One of those things like, it's like radar for even when I was just with my girlfriends, I knew where you were. Yeah. Those were good years. You're so beautiful. I love you. Well, I do remember at that camp. I think it was the next year.

8:28 It was the first time I noticed you're behind. Oh, my gosh. Because you put a towel. We were all in swimwear. We were by the pool or by the beach. We can't talk about that? I don't know. We were middle schoolers. I was attracted to you. That's what makes it awkward because you're middle schoolers. And then you wrapped the towel around you. And I noticed. I was like, whoa. She has a really cute butt, I think, was the thought I had in my mind. Certainly wouldn't have said ass. But yeah. Yeah, certainly wouldn't have said that. So you're 12 years old at camp, beach walk. What if I don't believe this? Yeah, and it lasted for a couple of days. And at camp, that's like huge. Huge, huge. Right, huge, huge. But that's not the only time I've doubted, God, for sure. But that was like the first very prominent reel to my core, oh no, what if I have just accepted all of this because I love the people that told it to me, but do I actually believe it?

9:26 And is this something that is my own or is this merely a shared concept so that I'm accepted and fit in the community? Which is interesting. Very, you know, back to my human development major that was 30 years ago. Actually, really interesting. We get it. You have degrees. You're almost done with your master's degree. Not almost. You keep saying that. And I'm taking it so slowly. People are going to think I'm failing all my classes. I'm just taking one class at a time. What are you saying? You win some, you lose some. It is what it is. What are you going to do? But really 12. Graduated high school with a 2.6. 12 years old. It's a GPA. Is when you do start to think in areas of gray, not just black and white. So really interesting. I didn't know that about you. Right at that. Right at that age where you started to. Brain developmental moment. Did you tell anybody about that? I mean, you were at camp, so you were surrounded by counselors and friends and leaders and pastors. Yeah, I think I told some friends. I just started asking them about like, why do you believe?

10:19 And I actually remember it's all coming back to me in real time. I think a few of my friends were like, I believe because, you know, it's what our parents tell us. And I was like, well, wait, that's not good enough. And they're like, I think so. So maybe their brain was still developing as well. I was just ahead. What can I say? As you are with your cool walk that you had at 12 years old. As you were telling that story and as I anticipated asking you the question. Yeah, what is your first story? I actually don't have a distinct memory of a when and a where, but I actually just have a distinct feeling. Probably would have been a similar age of what if all this isn't real? We put so much faith and stock in Jesus and faith. What if it's not real? But very similar to our personalities.

11:11 I didn't talk to anybody about it. Never would have voiced that to my parents or any of my youth leaders or my friends. Oh, gosh, no. Because at that point, to me, it felt like doubt was the enemy of faith. Whoa. That you couldn't hold. Yeah, I can see that. That you couldn't hold doubt and faith at the same time. So if I had doubt, then I surely didn't have faith. And so something was wrong with me because I, you know, get in my probably 12, 13, 14-year-old mind looking at all the people around me and think, well, they surely don't have any doubts. Yeah. And maybe because the fact that I have doubt means that, you know, and you just spiral downhill a little bit. But I think that's why my friends answered the questions. Yeah, you're assessing my memories in real time. In real time. I want to talk about doubt today. Obviously, as our podcast is called In Good Faith. Faith.

12:04 Because I really, one of my goals is I want to debunk the myth that doubt and faith cannot live in the same place at the same time. And I want to create a space for ourselves. It's been one of our goals for our kids, for people around us, that we would realize we could hold faith and doubt simultaneously. And they actually aren't opponents. And faith as a broad thought, faith in God, faith in ourselves, faith in others, that we could have enough, a big enough world where we could hold the two of those simultaneously. Oh, I love that. That's beautiful. What do you think is one of the advantages or why do you think that that's important that faith and doubt are held in the same space and treated respectfully? You know that adage, the saying that the opposite of love is- Opposite to track, Paula Abdul, of course.

13:05 Opposite. Oh, sorry. Straight up now. I still know all that. Straight up now. Tell me, baby. Do you want to love me forever? Oh, oh, oh. Am I coming in? Getting buzzed from the kombucha over here. No, the saying that the opposite. I'm not. I just. Oh my gosh. The saying that the opposite. Oh, maybe. You're going to let me know when I can finish? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going to let me know? Yeah. I remember that music video so vividly. I probably shouldn't. Is it a bad music video? Paul Abdul? I don't think so. Straight up, not telling you. I don't remember. Do you want to love me? Just let me know when I'm ready to continue on. I'm sorry. I'm with you. I'm back. The saying that the opposite of love isn't hate, that the opposite of love is indifference. Because think about times when I get more angry and have more negative feelings probably towards you than I have towards any other person on the planet. Yeah.

14:02 Not hateful feelings. But because I love you so fiercely, you have the ability to hurt me deeply, to make me angry, there is a depth of emotion that is reserved only for you in my heart. And if I didn't know that I could hold love for you and be hurt by you at the same time, I think I'd be very confused. I think there might be moments when I would want to walk out of our relationship, even though that's the last thing that I should do, if that makes sense. And so I think if we can create a space where people can hold, if doubt isn't the opposite of faith, I think the opposite of, I don't know, I haven't thought that far ahead what the opposite of faith is. But if they're not opponents, but they can exist in the same space, to give ourselves, our children, people a sense of peace and comfort when those things do exist simultaneously. And that nothing's wrong, that there isn't a problem with faith that's actually a part of it.

15:08 Yeah. It's really, really good. Maybe the opposite of faith is numb. It's another word for indifference. But you know what I mean? It's like, oh, that was really deep. But similarly, I mean, it really does. The words and the example really carry, I do think, indifference probably.

15:30 The antithesis of faith. Because I believe, and you asked what the goal is in this conversation. I think we need to have a family culture, a church culture, a community where we can talk about moments of doubt. and not feel ashamed of them and not feel that something's wrong with our faith and not feel. So I'm hoping that as you and I open this conversation that it actually sparks a lot of other conversations and that it gives people courage. Jesus moments that I can think of from the New Testament that's so meaningful to me in this regard. So yeah, I'm excited. Perfect. What's your Jesus moment that comes to mind?

16:08 The tender care he gave Peter. and and and and maybe it's interesting you speak of doubt but peter's expression of doubt was was denial um he he denied jesus um and jesus in his restorative moment with peter post-resurrection he um it starts with making him some food you know he makes breakfast breakfast for him uh by the water. I love Jesus for that, by the way. I love breakfast and I love being by the water. So this is perfect. But there's a tenderness in that moment that I think is so oftentimes not seen in the sacred Christian communities that we all participate in. I think we treat people in a very caustic way when they doubt. And we think that somehow they are opposing us or they're an enemy of the faith or they're bad and they're wrong. But Jesus lets this scene kind of breathe and play out. And he's not quick to correct Peter. He actually starts asking Peter questions while Peter's eating. I love what you just said, the tenderness, the tender expression of Jesus. And I think for me, I would love for that to set the tone of the conversation that you and I are about to have and the conversation that hopefully other people will have as a result of this, is that this is a topic that should be carried with tenderness.

17:40 That Jesus, it's actually so special, I believe, to him when we talk about our doubt, when we're honest about it, that he actually holds it with a lot of care and tenderness. I think for me, another goal that I would love to have as a result of this conversation is to mitigate the fear of believing. and what i mean by that the best example i can give for that is when your dad was fighting cancer and we've we've talked about this but um he very much took a stand that it's god's will to heal i mean i think he wrote a book he wrote papers he talked so often it is god's it is god's will to heal everybody and we prayed we believed there was there was a lot of faith surrounding the physical manifestation of your dad being physically healed on this side of eternity not in heaven. And I remember people trying to carefully come to us and say, well, aren't you afraid of what's going to happen if your dad isn't healed? Look, you guys are believing. So what's going to happen if your faith isn't manifest, if your faith hasn't been made sight? And I know for me, I don't want to get too far off on topic. Actually, never, your dad wasn't healed the way we would love to see him healed on this side of life was miraculously extended but he died from cancer complications yep and he had so many miracles in the process and yeah we could get lost but he passed away from cancer and that's not what we believed was god's will your dad was so young such an incredible man and the the skepticism around but what if you believe and what you're believing for doesn't happen. I would love to somehow mitigate that fear. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Can I, not an effort to specifically speak to that, but can I just loop back just for a moment? Because I think establishing something will

19:47 help the conversation going forward. And that is when it comes to expressing doubt within the context of community and friends and relationships. And I hesitated when you asked when I was 12 years old, did I tell anybody? I don't remember telling passers or any leaders, that's for sure, because I didn't want them to know. I can picture the boys that you were telling, like your friends at that age. You know some of their names, you know, and they were just like, what? No, I don't know. It definitely, yeah, it wasn't long, in-depth, meaningful conversations at all. They were very curt, direct and like, bro, what? No, come on, let's go, you know. Yeah. But in the scene where Jesus is speaking to Peter and engaging with Peter, make some breakfast. They're sitting by the sea and they're in the sand, probably in the rocks. And he's built a little fire and he's fixing them fish for breakfast. And Jesus starts asking Peter questions.

20:41 But keep in mind, Jesus knows he has access to the infinite knowledge of God. For he is the fullness of God in bodily form. He knows the doubts of Peter. He knows the denial and the actions that Peter had taken, but a few days before. And so I think it's imperative for us to remember, even within the context of our community, where it's incredibly unpopular, to verbalize your doubt. In the case of Jesus and Peter, and one of the great, you know, you got Thomas and Peter, I mean, some of the top leading doubters and all of the disciples, you know, Peter's right up there with Thomas as it's recorded in scripture. and yet God, Jesus is communicating to Peter, I know, I know your doubts. I know your denial of me, like I know it. But if you remember how it goes, which is one of my favorite passages, particularly in revealing the tender kindness of God and the tender way he restores us and reaffirms us is he says, you know, Peter, do you love me?

21:45 Do you love me? Lord, you know. And then Peter finally says, Lord, you know, I love you. And I think the response and the revelation, what God's trying to reveal to Peter is, I do know Peter, but do you know? And I'm letting you, I know that you love me, but I want you to know that you love me. And I think sometimes in the community, when someone expresses doubt, we think it is like, it's like the ejection seat, like in an aircraft that's going down. It's like, I'm out. But that's not it at all. One of the ways you stay in the seat, the proverbial seat of faith, is by expressing the things that cause you to want to disengage, to eject. And that's why we don't, our tradition doesn't always hold the space for faith and doubt. No, but Jesus did.

22:37 Jesus did. And even think about, as mentioned, Thomas, whose nickname, Thomas is also one of the 12 apostles. His nickname was Doubting Thomas. That later we've given him. Yeah, we've given him. History has given him. Poor guy. I'm sure he has a last name and his mom is like, I didn't name him Doubting Thomas. He said, hey, I'm not going to believe Jesus was resurrected until I see his hands and I feel his side. See the scars. See the whole thing. Yep. And a few days later, Jesus came. Walks through the wall. Walks through the wall. And think about this. Talk about that same tender care that Jesus gave to Peter. Jesus gave that same tender care to Thomas. And there wasn't a sense of, oh my gosh, I can't believe you have to have me. I can't believe you doubted me. How could you doubt? There was none of that. Jesus just literally came to Thomas with love and kindness.

23:30 He said, here you go. Here you go. You can see it. If this is what you need. If this is what you need. And I just have enough faith in who our God is that he is big enough to handle our doubt and to handle it with tender, loving kindness. And you know what's interesting? Well said. At the highest level of sports performance, the great legends of all the global sports we play. All the goats. All of the goats will tell you, they all, almost unanimously, at least in my documentary research. Which is very thorough. Very thorough. They've all admitted that all the goats agree that you're nervous. Of course you're nervous. You're about to tee off in the Masters or playing the Super Bowl or playing the World Cup. You know, Messi and all the guys. Of course you're nervous.

24:23 And they all say, you're nervous because you care. you're nervous because but we think in culture that you get to such an echelon someday in any category that you no longer have fear doubts anxieties worries but the greatest performers in history will teach you that the nerves you feel no matter who you are is because you care so much and i think people who worship god love god when they doubt or they have fears or hesitations or worries. It's because you care so much about your faith and you care so much about the divine that you feel those real primal human emotions. And I think you and I are also outing ourselves. We dream of providing a space and a community where these kinds of doubts and denials and hesitations and fears and worries about God can be voiced and absorbed and listened to and sat with. It's interesting you say that. I think of a conversation that you and our middle son, Elliot, had a couple weeks ago. And it was just a tender moment where, obviously, I always want to cover our kids, but where he voiced some doubt to you just about... Some stuff, yeah.

25:45 Yes, since he's 17. I mean, my goodness. Teenagers are heroes. He voice doubts that I'm still dealing with at 45 easily. And how endearing that was and how bonding that was between the two. I mean, you came to me like shaking, not with excitement over the fact that our son has doubts, but the fact that he would open up to you about them and talk to you and have that conversation and share that part of his heart. Because I think there is something innate in us as humans. That's right. that we feel like we have to hide our doubts, conceal them, don't show them. Why do it conceal, don't feel? Why do I hear how the Frozen song in my head when I conceal, don't feel? You're trying so hard. Let it go. Let it go. Be one with the sky and snow. I guess not the one. But I really believe we serve a God and we want to build a community and we want to have the relationship between you and I.

26:40 We want to foster friendships where doubts are actually shared. Yeah. Because I think it's in the floor of doubt that you lay there and you want to feel bad for yourself. You want to complain. but some of the most intimate beautiful meaningful moments we see in the entire new testament the greek bible if you will the bible in greek and aramaic is is these moments of extreme doubt and god seems to come near and come down to meet us in those places. And I could go on and on and on about stories that come to mind, but it's so funny how we see it as weakness, but I wonder sometimes if God sees it as a window to connect with us in ways that otherwise we wouldn't connect with him.

27:43 Well, I feel like I have seen and noticed in my own life and in the lives of people who we've done life with over the years, a difference between, let's call it destructive doubt and constructive doubt. Would you say that you have noticed the same thing, that doubt can either be constructive or it can be destructive? Yeah. And I just want to clarify because I think that can get incredibly difficult. And now suddenly someone's listening going, oh, do I have constructive or deconstructive or destructive doubt? What do I have? We just have doubt. Just go to old fashioned doubt is doubt. But it's a lot of kind of where you go and what you do with that doubt. And a lot of people in the sacred community of the church internalize it. They just conceal it. They don't reveal it. And so it breeds and it grows and it becomes embarrassing and it becomes something that becomes a preoccupying even rather than verbalize it, expose it, get it out there and have not only community members meet you there, but God meets you there. And he says in his scripture, when you are weak, then you are strong and my power rests upon you. So I think when we admit the weakness of our doubts, which we all have, But God is so, it's his classic move.

28:52 He loves to meet us there. And I just pray that as community members, that we would be able to kind of exemplify that to each other. Yeah, you took the words right out of my mouth. Yes. That it's actually not, there isn't one kind of doubt and another kind of doubt. Doubt is doubt. It is what we do with it that determines, is it going to strengthen our relationship with God and with others? Or is it going to subtly eat at us and derail us and make us question beliefs that really are integral to our life? It's what we do with it. Well said. Moving on. Oh, okay. Well, I mean, the whole conversation is moving on. But we've been focusing so far around doubt in God and doubt in faith is kind of where we started. Okay. But there are other kinds of doubt I want to touch on. And then I think we can tie them all up together with some tools. Just finished my kombucha for those who can't watch the video.

29:47 Look how much slower I am with mine. It was really good. I needed it. It has a little caffeine in it too. Yeah. A little pep to my step. A little pep to your step. Yep. And I think this kind of doubt is actually harder to deal with than doubt in God. It's my personal experience. You can disagree with me. Self-doubt. Self-doubt. Ah, I took the words right out of your mouth again. Yes. I love it and hate it when you do that. Um, what do you think harder to do to deal with than doubt in God? Self-doubt. First of all, how would you describe self-doubt? How would you define it and describe it? Um, I think to me it expresses itself in that primal fear that says, um, am I who I think I am? Am I who people say I am? um am i a secret agent so to speak do i have duplicity living inside of me the answer to most of that is just of course but i think it's this idea of like um yeah i did a i did a guided prayer once to music and things and i remember just kind of one of those prayers that started coming out and i don't really prepare any of my guided prayers which is kind of in the moment and And I was praying and just saying, God, if they only knew, I got to live with me.

31:14 And it's that like all the lights are off. The house is quiet. Everybody's asleep. And you're looking out the window and maybe there's a little moonlight. And you're kind of just with yourself. And you're wondering, not only who am I, but am I who people think I am? And, you know, if you never had self-doubt, you were just born a couple weeks ago. But for the rest of us, we all have it. And I do think self-doubt can oftentimes be more debilitating than doubting God. Because it's so tangible and staring at you in the face every morning in the mirror. And you're like, whoa, that's me and who is me and all those things. So I think self-doubt, obviously, it's an epidemic. It just is what it is.

32:07 I don't think you need any research to tell you that. I think we all struggle with it. And in some cases, it is completely debilitating. Yeah, I think when we're doubting God, you can have those questions that you had at Twin Rocks Friends Camp when you were 12, tell your friends, and then go out and play basketball and kind of go out on the beach walk and kind of put it in a box, put it in a category to, Okay, I'll deal with that later, if that makes sense. Self-doubt, because we, I mean, we live with God all the time too, but because we are consciously aware of ourselves every moment of every day, when we find this cloud of self-doubt coming over us, it's really hard to get away from. It's really hard to categorize self-doubt and say, okay, but now I'm just going to go do my job. Well, now I'm just going to go be a dad to my kids. Now I'm just going to go be a wife to my husband, you know, all those things. And sometimes self-doubt, I think, can manifest in a specific area of our life, like in regards to our professional relationships or our relationships or areas that we can categorize.

33:13 But we're still living with it all the time. Do you think, such a great way of describing it, do you think, though, that perhaps that's why Jesus said, if any man loses his life, there he will find it? this is what i think okay martin luther who as you know is a great reformer reformer yeah 1500s when the church was just about a lot of pomp and circumstance and that you had to basically pay your way out of the sins and the wrongs that you did was what he was reforming against in the church yeah he had this expression that he wrote to a letter he obviously is 1500s no one's having phone calls. So the great part about that is we have so much incredible correspondence to help us that we can see. And his friend's like, I don't know what to do. I, I, I, I'm just, he was wallowing basically in self-doubt. And he was saying, because I'm just, I'm still, I'm still sinning.

34:09 I'm still this person who is selfish and wants to do my own thing. And he was wallowing. And what Martin Luther said to him was, you know what you need to do? Sin boldly. The translation from German and what he wrote it in the best translation in English is sin boldly. And the point he was making wasn't, Hey, just go, go, go sin. Just be a selfish, horrible human being. Who's mean to all the people around you. It was just, why can't you just boldly admit I'm a sinner? I am somebody who is messed up. And for us as followers of Jesus, that is the foundation of the gospel, which goes back to Jesus said, hey, to find yourself, you have to lose yourself. I think what we have to lose is the concept that we're good enough on our own, that we can do it on our own, our self-sufficiency. We just have to sin boldly and boldly declare, I'm a sinner. I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. I can't figure this out. I can't do this on my own.

35:11 I can't, I, instead of trying to be enough, I think it starts with admitting I'm actually not enough. Yeah. Do you agree with that? Yeah. I think another way of saying it is quite literally giving up, is giving up the meager, feeble attempt to save yourself or improve yourself in such a way that somehow you eliminate self-doubt. I think it's always there. I think it's part of the weakness that God speaks of that we can find strength in. But I will say, and maybe we're way ahead here in terms of giving practical tools, but I have found myself over and over and over wanting to wallow, as you say, in self-doubt and have found great haven and harbor from my own tormenting thoughts by throwing myself into the care of somebody else, throwing myself into the care of my fellow man, neighbor, friend, or family. Now, is that the only solution? Can you lose yourself there? And meaning like suddenly unless you can do ministry or do your job, a lot of people use their job as escape, you know, suddenly you're left with yourself again at night on your pillow going, but I'm still here with me.

36:25 But I have found a lot of letting go by serving and caring for others. And the truth is, I think I'll have friends be like, dude, man, you just you help so many people. I'm like, well, so many people help me. You know, when I get to help people, they they don't even realize how much they're helping me. So funny. That always reminds me of a story when you and I were first married and I moved from Portland to Seattle. to be your wife. Literally our wedding was in Portland and then had our honeymoon in Hawaii and we flew back to Seattle and Seattle was my new home. And we were part of your parents' church at that point. Your parents were the pastors. You were like the golden child pastor's son. Everybody loved you. You were cool, had a great walk, don't want to get into it. and I remember, and I was always like a kind of a third of the way back person in church, like never liked to sit up front, never liked the attention. All of a sudden here I am married to you. And like, I didn't even know, like, like we, we like to like lift our hands in worship sometimes, you know, and we're singing. And I was like, I felt so embarrassed doing that.

37:36 People are, nobody, nobody here is going to think I'm good enough for Judah, you know, And all of that self-doubt that tried to imprint, infringe on me in that season. And Saturdays were always hard days for me when we first got married because we worked, but you were still at a janitor at the church. And that was the days that you went and spent eight hours at the church, cleaning the church, scrubbing the toilets, getting it all ready for church on Sunday. And we shared a car, so that means I was home by myself on Saturday. Shared a Saturn. shared no um oh by that time by that time we had we had a jetta the volkswagen passat oh yeah we no we took it out we went in for a jetta but we walked out with a passat man that salesman got us such a bad financial decision um and saturdays you would be gone all day and i'd be dreading sunday church the next day like just knowing those those fears that i would be facing but I finally figured out and I think it was probably God or your mom probably helped me.

38:41 I don't know if I can serve others, it will make a difference. And I had a small group of high school girls at that time. We were youth pastors. And so I would just make Saturday my phone call day. And I would call, like call down my list of 12, 15, 20 girls. How are you doing today? Anything going on? Anything I can pray for you for whatever. And honestly, always by the end of that Saturday, I felt completely different than I did before I would call those girls. I'm sure they thought I was calling because I was so loving and kind. If they only knew how selfish- And all those girls you're still in a relationship with. Yeah. If they only knew how selfish I was just trying to feel better and get rid of self-doubt. I find it that fascinating in the context of this. Brene Brown, who has done so much incredible research that, again, love it when science and scripture aligns. So much of her research has been on shame and vulnerability. And she has found quite a connection between shame and self-doubt.

39:39 Does that resonate with you? Yeah. I think a word in scripture is used condemnation. And the scripture says emphatically, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who have accepted the performance of Jesus. And that word condemnation is kind of a combination of self-doubt and shame. I mean, that's kind of its definition. It's this idea of like, based on my performance, I clearly should doubt myself. And as a result of my own self-doubt, which seems to be backed by my statistics in life, I'm embarrassed and I'm ashamed. And one of the things that thrills me the most about the story of Jesus, wherever anyone is with this story and where it lands for you and your heart, is ultimately something that we trust God with.

40:48 We can't save ourselves, talk ourselves into this, but this teaching has become the most important concept and story in the world to you and I. and the idea is that God put on skin and bone lived a perfect life in the person of Jesus and then took upon his body all of the judgment and punishment of the failures the rude crude mean evil sinister selfish things we do and so now his perfection gave him the platform to accept our imperfection, God in his justice, because God is pure and God is true and God is right. He could judge all of humanity in the physical body of Jesus. So now by believing in Jesus, our life is not defined by our performance, but the performance of Jesus, which now sets us free from crippling things like self-doubt and shame, which is condemnation. And so I think people think like, oh, you just like being a preacher and you're a big Christian guy. It's like, call me preacher, Christian. I don't really care about those titles. I think what I care about is this story that has changed human history as we know it. And undoubtedly, the most compelling figure to ever live just by sheer statistics and research and impact and longevity of impact is Jesus Christ from Nazareth.

42:22 So this is one of my favorite parts. And if I could say benefits of the performance of Jesus, because it rages against self-doubt and shame. Well, and God communicated to us in his word through the Bible in Romans, I think it's five in the Passion Translation, that God now sees us without flaw. Yeah. It literally says without flaw. And so we get to live in this incredible reality of free. I am so flawed. I am so messed up. I'm so selfish. I'm, you know, fill in the gap, but I am viewed by the divine as flawless. Perfect. And perfect. And to me that, that eliminates and eradicates shame and all those things that try to, that, that try to eat itself doubt. sometimes though i have to admit i have a hard time there is a disconnect in those things that i know to be true about god and theology in my head but what i face in my heart and my heart telling me i'm not good enough i'm not prepared i'm not and any thoughts for how to get that connection i mean maybe maybe i'm the only person who ever struggles with maybe it's like i don't even know if I believe that in my head, but getting that heart in that head connection synced up.

43:47 I mean, honestly, and this is going to sound deeply Christian and spiritual and Bible talk, but there's a scripture that says, rejoice in the Lord always. Again, I say rejoice. That now transferred into the story of Jesus and the lifespan of Jesus and the miraculous resurrection of Jesus and ascension of Jesus, all that had an enormous amount of witnesses that have been passed down through history, teaches me this, that rejoicing in what Jesus has done, again, rejoice again and again and again. God said that, you know, Jesus said one of the disciples asked him, how do you pray for so long? What are you doing? He's like, when you pray, pray this. And Jesus said, when you pray, ask God for this daily nourishment, this daily bread. And daily bread, I think, is the daily realization, the daily revisiting, the daily refreshment of the performance of Jesus now defines my life, not my performance. And frankly, I think Martin Luther, it cost him everything to absorb, believe, and then begin to testify to this truth. But I think the reason he says sin boldly is that you are quite literally, this idea of obsessing over your conduct and over your moralism and over your performance is very contrary to the mind bending, life altering, greatest story news ever told, which is quite literally, my performance is not what saves me. And my performance is not what proves me. And my performance is not what justifies me. It is the perfect performance of Jesus, which is completed and done. Now by absorbing that like bread and nourishment every day, by rejoicing in it, by I'm talking about, you could have the most selfish night of your life,

45:58 But you have all of the supernatural, eternal, biblical credence to wake up in the morning and rejoice in the Lord always. And say again, I am who I am by the grace of God. Paul, who writes more than half of the New Testament inspired by the spirit of Jesus, he says, I am the worst of all sinners. I'm a bad sinner. I'm a selfish guy. And yet God set him up to be such an incredible vehicle and voice for the greatest story ever told. So I just think one of the reasons you and I are so excited about this, I think people just see, oh, they're just Christian preachers. Isn't that cute? It's more than that. And we weren't even called Christians at first. We were called people of the way. And I love that term because we have absorbed and accepted and believed and committed to this way of living. And it's not typified by not wearing a hat in church or not chewing gum in church or not cussing or watching rated R movies.

46:59 It's typified by this idea that my life is now not defined. My worth and my value is no longer defined by my performance and my moralism and my information and my data and my income. It's defined by the actual performance of Jesus, which if I'm really, really honest, and you know this is true, That is what gives me the confidence that I'm able to live my daily life with. I really, really believe this. I believe it to my core. And so I can do what I do because of what Jesus has done. Yeah, I believe it too, obviously. That's why we're here doing what we're doing. But if I'm being honest, I want my worth and value to come from that. but there is still such a human part of me where my worth and value comes from other people's perception of me yep for sure for all of us yeah um i you're so gonna be so annoyed at this isn't therapy the other day um and we were just talking which i love therapy i don't know that She says this a lot.

48:17 It's like a once a day comment that you pretty much roll your eyes every time I say, well, there you go. I don't roll. I don't roll my eyes. What is your response when I say? What are you bracing for? Exhale. I just exhale really when you say that. Why? Why? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question. I don't actually know. Okay. What were you going to say though? I feel like I just shared my heart of the greatest truth in the history of mankind and the only truth that's really transcended and really traveled through time and really changed people like me and given me confidence in this life. And you're like, yeah, I believe that.

48:58 Yeah, because we're talking about doubt, right? And holding intentions. Yes, I believe in what you said 100 percent. but also there's moments of having self-doubt be in what the experience that I was walking through with my therapist was the the the change in friendships and relationships that we've had in the last in the last couple years and I I ended up on uncovering and realizing like I I don't think I was worth enough as a friend to fight over and it kind of uncover that whatever you and I have talked about this, this is new to you. But that has nothing to do with me and God. That has nothing to do with God viewing me as flawless and seeing me in right standing with him. But it still does introduce a level of self-doubt that I find myself having to fight.

49:52 Not how am I perceived by God, but how am I perceived by others? and does the approval of god and the acceptance of god does it um give you comfort when you feel alone when you feel people have walked away from you dad you questioned you absolutely spread misinformation about you yeah doesn't it for you yeah for sure absolutely but i but i don't want to sit here on this podcast and like oh Jesus thinks I'm awesome so I always feel awesome yeah no I'm not trying to make it petty but I think the practice that you and I are in the practice of is um daily if not hourly yep revisiting again who he is and what he's done but but also like using people as sounding boards you know and and i mean that there let there would be reverberation within context of relationship and community where we're encouraging each other and one scripture says sing to one another in songs hymns and spiritual songs making melody in your hearts to one another you know i think there's some harmony and melody that comes into where like yeah bro i love you i believe in you jesus loves you you know that's yeah i think that verse we're transformed by the renewing of our mind renewing and that is a daily practice of hey it's got to be new today it's got to be new today It's got to be new today.

51:17 I think especially for our friends who grew up in environments where family was not encouraging, where parents were not life-giving, where there just are those realities that Jesus does transform us. But it's a day-by-day process. Great point. And letting people soak in that and hold space for, I fully believe God has made me righteous and views me as flawless. But man, I don't always feel valuable because I was told that as a child, or I've been treated like that by friends, or I don't feel like I measure up in these areas. And letting there be space for both of those things to exist at the same time and having honest conversations about that. And that doesn't diminish the beautiful, perfect work that Jesus has done in our lives. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I think I completely agree with that. And I think it amplifies it.

52:12 But this idea that even the way that I've articulated some of the realities and the truth and the transcendent story that is of Jesus and his performance. I mean, I don't always feel the way I feel about it right now with these lights on recording this podcast is very persuasive and very deep, but doesn't always feel like that. And I think in those days, the ability to admit that, articulate that, say that over text or a voice memo or a phone call or with each other is absolutely imperative. and the scripture that comes to mind to me is, is, uh, you know, be, be still and know that I'm God, which is another way of saying like, you're not still enough. And so you kind of think that you're God and God of your own life, God of your own destiny, God of your own performance, God of your own perception, God of your own reputation, God of your own, you know, anyone that what they're saying out there in the ether about you and how they see, you know, I gotta, I gotta God that I gotta control that. I gotta rule that I gotta, I gotta, and sometimes it I got to prove to everybody that I am valuable.

53:10 Yeah. I'll show them. I am right. That I am and I got to show them. And all of a sudden then we're. Yeah. They're so, so right. And it's insidious in nature. Which leads to the last kind of doubt I want to touch on. And I don't know where this falls in the ranking system. Okay. I feel like self-doubt is the hardest to deal with. God doubt. Where do you feel like this one falls? Doubt in other people. Hmm. well i think where does it fall i think it falls like that there needs to be a scale i think it falls as the number one thing i'm dealing with right now in my entire life hands down it's not even close yeah i feel i have no idea where these podcast episodes go chelsea leads all these and preps all these so this is all news to me in real time here i did not know we were going to do this So bear with me. But yeah, I feel at the time, you know, I feel very confident in who God is. I love him.

54:05 I feel very confident in what I know, but also what I don't know. I love, you know, the talents and abilities that God's given to me. Coolest walk. Thank you. I feel that way about you. I feel that way about our kids. But I think I have had deep, deep days, even recently in the last week, where it's like, I don't know if how trustworthy people are. And I think, is it a John Mayer song? You know, what's that John Mayer song? I don't know. Where you don't, oh gosh, it's not coming to me. But anyways. I really. Yeah. What's that John Mayer song? you know where he talks about everybody's oh everyone's watching everyone's true no one's honest yeah everyone's on nobody's honest nobody's true i guess i just feel like i'm the same way too yeah giving up today yeah people are so annoyed they're like Yeah, they're like, dear Lord, what was that?

55:22 But yeah, I think that's probably a lot of what I've been struggling with the last several weeks. I think the special community that church is because of our proximity and passion and love for each other and love for God, it is always going to be a place where sometimes it breeds pain and relational fallout. And I think we've experienced more than we ever bargained for. There's been a shift in vision in our community that we lead as well that I think a lot of people are like, you know, I'm not down for that. And sometimes we over-spiritualize it, but sometimes it's just like, I just don't like the direction you're taking. And I'm not, I don't really want to go with you, but we don't say it that clear. We kind of, we kind of meander and say a bunch of other stuff. So, yeah, I have often wondered, you know, I think you and I have the privilege of being protectors of people, some people who are pretty well-known. And so you get a little disillusioned in that as well, because the practice of protecting people can get exhausting because you see all the people that come to get what they want from somebody, but not really to care for who that person is.

56:31 And that can lead to that same spiral of like, man, is anyone honest and is anyone true? Is anyone looking out for their fellow man or are they just kind of trying to make a buck and get a little bit bigger house and a little bit bigger brand? I don't know. Well, and another word for faith that's very easily interchangeable with it, different definitions, but is trust. Trust, yeah. And relationships really are built on trust. Without trust, there is no relationship, especially in marriage and all relationships. But every single human is inevitably going to let another human down at some point. Yeah. And some… It's just what it is. And I feel like that's such a crass way to say it because there are very, there's criminal ways of doing that. And then there's, you know, petty ways of doing that. And then every spectrum in between of one human letting down another human. But that is a reality of life on the planet.

57:29 And I think so much of what you and I really are facing in our mid-40s is having been let down by people. Also having let down other people. And that's what you're saying. Oh, man. Yeah, I let down so many people. Just by the direction we've taken in the community that we lead, I think a lot of people are like, that's not the direction I want to go. And that feels like a big old-fashioned letdown. And so here we are. It's like, hey, we know we've let down people and we have experienced letdown break of trust by other people. And how do we hold space to still trust people and live in relationship? Because the opposite of that is isolation. We know we don't want to do that while still realizing, you know, maybe I'm not going to give everybody so much all the time. Right. And that and walking through that. And obviously it's not a none of these are simple answers.

58:24 This isn't like in good faith. Here's three simple ways to never do without again. This is it's just hey, let's have a conversation so that so the conversation can be had. Yeah. Yeah, I certainly learned from my own proclivities and shortcomings and weaknesses. And, you know, I am inconsistent as a human. And it is interesting how sometimes we just expect other humans to be perfectly consistent and always the same all the time. Sorry, I know you're trying to say more, but can I just say that is so true. How often we expect things from other people that we ourselves do not do. Yeah. And we know we're not perfect. We know, hey, we have given ourselves permission to sin boldly, but realize that we are accepted by Jesus. How can we do that for others? Yeah.

59:15 How can we recognize that people are sinners or, you know, are flawed. We're going to live flawed lives. But yet we get to see them the way God sees that. Yeah. It's that tension that we get to walk in. I think. It is. I think if I'm really honest, I think I struggle sometimes thinking I am better than the next guy. And there's one reason that I'm struggling with that right now. I think there's a boundary that I have and you have that I think other people don't have. And I think sometimes it makes me feel like I'm more trustworthy. And that is publicly calling people out. I think that has been one of the most debilitating aspects of the cultural norms today, that I will probably somewhere someday be 77 years old in Palm Springs with you with tan bodies and swimsuits, sipping on an iced Chardonnay, hopefully by a nice aqua pool, probably still dumbfounded. at the way people will go to the public sector to call people out by name.

1:00:42 I see very little, you know, biblical evidence for that kind of activity. And I'm not going to lie. I think when it comes to trusting people, we have had people that we have shared our heart and our life with and in turn, because maybe it seems like they don't get from us what they want. They have gone to the public sector to and spread misinformation about us. And that definitely is one of the more painful things that I didn't know was going to be a part of our journey. But at the same time, I'm really not angry. I'm not offended. My feelings are hurt, but my feelings get hurt a lot and I don't wish anyone harm. Yeah. I don't know why we in life feel compelled to rank difficulties. Like it's just like let him be right up there.

1:01:37 But it's one of the reasons I was so inspired. If you remember our conversation with Israel and Adrian, Israel, and I mean, yeah, we could say, Oh, I experienced all day long, but they really went through it. In fact, it's just like, it's like, even on the, on the comments of our podcast, people still going after him for getting divorced. Like, oh my gosh, let it go, people. I have found a lot of courage and strength from Israel. And seeing others who have experienced harder or worse or different or older. Again, I don't know why we feel compelled to compare. But as they have experienced Jesus and walked in forgiveness, the life and strength and buoyancy that others have experienced And it gives me hope. And can I say, it's not only someday I got to write a book or something, but can I say that the portion of Scripture that has still given me the most energy to keep moving and in relationship to trusting people is probably what I believe is the greatest sentence ever uttered in human history.

1:02:50 Jesus says, while they're nailing him to a crucifixion, to a tool for agony and pain, the crucifixion, the cross, he says, Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. But you know, the scripture says he said it over and over and over and over. And all I'm saying is I commit to saying that over and over, not because I think it's noble or moral, but because I think it's true. I've heard a lot of people, but I didn't know what I was doing. I've said a lot of dumb things about a lot of beautiful, wonderful human beings, but I didn't know what I was doing. And so I have found myself, not that I'm just handing out the practical tool, but literally this has been like a life force to me. Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. They really big picture. We don't know what we're doing.

1:03:42 We're probably thinking that we're, you know, soldiers for Jesus on the internet by outing these bad people we think are so evil and bad. We really are. We don't know what we're doing. We're doing our best down here. And we're all, it's maybe so cheesy, but we really are all God's children. And he cares for all of us. And to let that supernatural, because it's outside of ourself, reality take shape and place in us. Will you close us in prayer? This has been therapy. You had no idea I was going to do this. Right? Maybe you should try therapy. I have. What do you mean try therapy? I have done therapy. Yes, you have. Yes. Oh, man. I have. I just did it right now. All right. I'll pray. God, thank you.

1:04:31 Trust is one of the most precious, sacred, costly, and valuable things you have ever gifted and given to mankind. We treasure it. we realize that trust cannot be concocted or conjured up. It is something you gift, divine persuasion. You have persuaded us again of your majesty and your beauty. I'm asking for everyone listening to this prayer that you would meet them wherever they are. Maybe in that car right now, maybe in that plane ride, maybe in that train, maybe in their dorm room, their living room, in that park, maybe on a walk, maybe in the middle of the night or early in the morning. you know where my friend is right now listening to these actual words as I pray, meet my friend there now. Persuade us again. You are grand and you are great. And Lord, specifically, I ask that you would continue to infuse us with energy, stamina, and strength to forgive those who have broken our trust. Those who have maybe even decided to spread misinformation about us on any scale. It hurts. It's painful. But God help us forgive.

1:05:55 Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. I ask that in the middle of our doubt, I can only imagine the amount of doubt that individuals are facing listening to this. Whether God doubts, self-doubt, or people doubt, all the layers and levels of doubt, you are there and you are present. Remind us again who you are, what you're doing, who we are, and what you've called us to be doing. Thank you for these moments. Amen.