Preserving Individuality in Romantic Relationships

0:40 This is In Good Faith. Okay, today on In Good Faith, we are talking, and I'm going to read our exact title for this episode because it is incredibly provocative, preserving individuality in romantic relationships. Now, we could broaden it to say preserving individuality in all relationships, but specifically romantic relationships. And this brings us very delicately, but directly to a story. Probably. The most painful thing in our marriage? Probably the hardest extended season of my life. And that was when for five years, I severely and significantly battled chronic fatigue, which, you know, it's one of those things that, okay, I feel so embarrassing because I would hear people say that. I would kind of roll my eyes like, oh my gosh, just get some motivation in life.

1:44 True confessions. I probably needed to be more forgiving towards others. So I could have been more forgiving towards myself. Yeah, like somehow like having the cold or the flu is like more legitimate than chronic fatigue. Well, I mean, I had some doctors kind of tell me I was crazy. But yes, you did. So chronic fatigue, my thyroid went out. Things spiraling on the inside that are really, to me, a sign that something is wrong on the outside. And when I look back on that season and take inventory about what happened, A lot of it was a result of me not listening to myself, who I am, and as a result, not listening to my body. And trying to do all the things that you were doing that were comfortable within your personality but were stretched to me. And I just wore my body way too thin. Translations for those listening, it means that she tried to do everything to make me happy. And as a result, was in so many social settings, it exhausted her deeply. I mean, that's the bottom line.

2:41 No, because the reality is, is I'm really good to say no to social settings, but our work life and our social life are so intricately entwined that I couldn't say no to quote unquote work things that were also socially draining, although they were energizing to you as an extrovert. And I let our schedule become full of what was energizing to you, which not just social events, but random, no plan, no schedule, no routine. we were flying back and forth between Seattle and Los Angeles every week with our children. And I just, I did not prioritize, as I say myself, but not just myself, but really prioritizing the way that God made me, the things that make me uniquely me and special. I look back and realize I wasn't seeing the specialness of me. And so I was not honoring my body to the way that, I mean, there were dark days in those years and you were really sweet. You stepped up and help so much on days I couldn't get out of bed or get off the sofa. Sweet. Yes. But also really, really ignorant. And I think early on it was like, hey, just suck it up like me. Let's get on this plane. What's the big deal? I just can't get on the plane. No, no, you're fine. Come on. It'll be great. We're going to have a great night. We're going to have a great day. It's going to be awesome. I remember times on Wednesdays, literally sitting in my closet, looking at my suitcase.

3:56 I never let you see this even, which is probably a warning sign. Literally on my knees saying, I cannot get up. I can't pack this suitcase. I can't get on this airplane, but I'd kind of suck it up and do it anyway. Well, most of the time we were doing it with our three kids too. So, and I'd put my headphones on and write a sermon. Well, that's really nice and convenient and calming where you were oftentimes keeping the office. We did have a nanny for a couple of those years, which was helpful too. Can I ask you a question? At the beginning, do you remember a moment where you were like, I'm going to do this even at my own detriment, where you're like, I'm just going to suck it up and do it? You know, when I look back to that season, I think that's actually one of the things that I feel most disappointed about or even would question God about if I'm being really honest that I don't feel like I had any of those moments. I don't feel like I was doing anything wrong.

4:54 I felt like I was doing everything right. You know, all those sayings you hear, to be a leader, to go forward, you have to get out of your comfort zone. You have to step outside of yourself. All these cliches I think that are just probably idiotic and not even in the Bible. I think I really thought I was doing the right thing, which is almost scarier for myself and maybe scarier for people listening to think we could lose ourselves maybe at such a level that we think that what we're doing is right. What was motivating you primarily during this season where quite literally you became physically unwell? I love our job. We would get to Seattle and we'd get to church on Sunday and seeing everybody. I loved those people so much. We get to LA and we get to church on Wednesday and I loved everybody who I saw so much. I love you. I love being with you. I love our kids. I love dragging our kids along. I loved all the work that we did in between those moments.

5:50 So is it weird to say I felt motivated by love? Maybe it was an expression of loving other people so much, but not actually loving myself, which I don't. Here's like all my trigger words, chronic fatigue and loving myself. I'm like, oh my word, just get over it. I'm such a practical person sometimes, which led to the problem. Would you agree? Yes. Let me ask you another question. Okay, I like all these questions. It's so fun. since it's hard for you to pinpoint kind of the beginning of maybe losing some of your individual approach to life and ministry and what we were doing. Was there a moment in our relationship where you realized you needed to focus on yourself as an individual? It's interesting you ask that. And I couldn't pinpoint a lot of things to a moment of that season, but I do remember my sister had a 40th birthday party. And so this would have been, gosh, Well, I won't throw her age under the bus.

6:52 Maybe two years into this journey of dealing with fatigue. And because it was her birthday party, there was somebody there who we grew up with and who I was single in college with. And he made a comment to you that was so interesting to me. He's like, oh yeah, Chelsea, she was so much fun in college. And I laughed because I thought, nobody thinks of me as the fun person anymore. Like you get to be the fun person. So it's like, I've taken on the role of serious person. And I don't know, Do you ever feel like you have lost yourself? I mean, after being together for so many years, I think there is a healthy adaptation. And then I think there is an unhealthy adaptation. And how can we know the difference? Well, obviously, there is this overextension that begins to happen. In the case of me, it's been completely different. And obviously, my physical body hasn't been affected like yours in this practice. but the deep, deep exhaustion when I attempt to see things and approach things the way that you're naturally God-given talent approaches things. And so that's where I have found some level of empathy with you in like, oh, well, I can't imagine if many, many days in a row, I just kept doing things that I'm not primarily talented to do. Meaning so much of our daily routine was social interaction after social interaction after social interaction. And by the way, it was oftentimes with high stakes, people going through deep, deep trauma, deep pain, loss, excitement, joy, thrill. So we're weeping with people who weep. We're laughing with those who laugh. We're trying to do this. And meanwhile, you need alone time. I need to use my brain without using my words for a good part of the day. And if I had to use my brain and not my words, I noticed incredible exhaustion.

8:41 So you answer the question of, is there times you felt like you lost yourself? I think you have a stronger personality between the two of us. So I think if one of us was going to do more adapting, it was probably going to be me. Is that bad to say? And I think most marriages that we know, somebody has a stronger personality. There's somebody who's going to be more prone to adapting and somebody who's more prone to not. But the reason you and I were attracted to each other and fell in love and were best friends isn't because we're the same. It's actually because we're so different and we can just have these- Paula Abdul is right. Opposites of track. Opposites of track. Oh my gosh, you're definitely dating us. It's a great music video though.

9:19 If I wouldn't have gone through what I went through physically, if I hadn't suffered a physical- Setback. Setback. I still don't know if I would have thought that my adaptation was wrong. Actually, looking back, I really think it was probably the grace and love of God that that happened. And otherwise I would have kept going until not just my body broke down, but my emotions and my spirit because I wasn't living true to who God made me to be. But I thought what I was doing was so right and so sacrificial and so spiritual. For those listening, whatever faith background you come from, if one at all, you need to know when it comes to Christianity, there really is this emphasis in a romantic relationship that the two become one. And there's this meshing, there's this blending, there's this confluence that is supposed to be the beauty and pinnacle of all marriage. And I think what we're saying is it's probably gotten a little excessive, this teaching.

10:20 And it's led people to believe that you just kind of lay your individuality down every day and you just get sewn together again. But we've noticed that it's created huge obstacles now for you physically. Yeah, and I guess I'm hoping that through this episode, people who are listening, who are in new relationships, who are newly married or newly dating, would take the lesson I had to learn the really long, hard way and not give up that individuality. Because I realized actually as a follower of Jesus, somebody who I believe I'm created in the image of God and you're created in the image of God, but we're both uniquely created. What I was doing was actually a lack of worship. Wow. It was a lack of honoring God. because I wasn't being true to the way he made me to be, the way he created me to be. I felt like I had to sweep my true self under the rug to be what he called me to be, which is a horrible view of God, by the way.

11:16 Well, yeah. Today I was hanging some art in the house and I had the hammer and then I put the hammer away. The one handy thing you've done in like a year. Way to weave it into the podcast. I appreciate it. That was completely unnecessary because I have a great metaphor, an analogy. And that is, I put the hammer away downstairs in the garage, and I didn't want to go back in the garage to get the hammer. So I just pulled out a Phillips screwdriver. It had a pretty big handle, and I turned it around and used the handle to pound in a little nail to hang the art. Well, guess what? That's a screwdriver. It's not actually a hammer. But did it work? But it did work. Would that work long term if I really wanted to be efficient and effective and wanted to use a ton of nails and a ton of hammers and a ton of building and a ton of home? Well, no. It would actually get incredibly taxing. My hands would get tired. The screwdriver would be compromised. And I think that's what we're saying. It's like in terms of honoring God, God made you the way you are, whether you're a hammer or a screwdriver or a wrench, you know, whatever you are, God made you for a specific purpose, the way that you were designed and made.

12:18 And that's what you're talking about is acting in consistency with the way God made you. Let me ask you another question. Has there ever been a point in this journey where we've had a conversation or I've said something or asked something that has been really, really helpful in preserving and maybe rediscovering your individuality? When I look back at that journey, I definitely think of a very critical time. And that was when actually for a work-related exercise, we had a consultant come in and had us take personality tests that told us according to our personality, what our work styles are. Do you remember this? And came with a whole little workbook and everything. And we took the personality test and the guy who was leading us in this exercise looked at us. I think at that point you'd been married for like 17 years. He said, and you guys have been married for 17 years and you're happy sitting here together because we are literally so opposite on every end of the personality spectrum, except for in strength.

13:30 We're both strong. But when we went one step further in that workbook and it talked about what we need for a healthy working environment, I realized that because you and I work together, I had given you everything you need for a healthy working environment. And I had nothing that I need for a healthy working environment. And I actually- I do remember that. Wow. I don't blame you for that. Maybe I should have. I don't know.

13:55 I blamed myself for it because I know I willingly let it happen. But that did something so significant for me to realize I can't keep going like this. I can't keep letting that happen. And so I literally took out that list from that back of that book, as silly as it is, and realized I need to restructure my work life so that I can get what I need, so I can have energy and be true to myself in that. And then you were a little annoyed at me because you were used to me always being there for what you wanted me to be for. Yeah, that's embarrassing, but true. So how did you handle that annoyance or what was that like for you? Life is constantly learning. If you want to endeavor in this practice, in this work of rediscovering or preserving individuality, it's going to take a lot of learning because there's a lot of codependence in this world. And that's one of my primary addictions by the way, in case you're wondering. And so this is going to be a long play. There's no shortcuts.

14:51 It's not going to be short. It's a long play though, because we were married for 20 years. If you're new in a relationship, I don't think it has to be a long play. I think you can do some things different than you and I did to never have to end up. Yeah, that's well said. And I think I'm speaking from the recovery process. And I'm trying to say, don't ever get to where we got. than even maybe I should. But I will say the honest response is when I saw you, your countenance, your demeanor, your body language, for lack of a better term, I saw a confidence almost returned. And I saw it in nuanced expressions because I know you, but I was like, oh, wow, there's a confidence. And you've never lacked confidence. But I think if you're continually practicing life in an environment that's ideal for the other person and not for you, there is a diminishing confidence. It's so interesting how a simple personality test was so helpful for me. Something that's available for anybody. I think tools of understanding and knowing yourself are so great in helping us not to adapt to a detrimental level. I'm grateful we got married young because we got to grow up together. But I think one of the drawbacks to getting married young is there's probably some things about myself that I should have learned that I didn't learn before we got married. Or that if anybody is listening, he gets married young to make sure you take time to learn those things about yourself. If I, if we had come into marriage and I had eight years of work experience that I had worked on my own and I knew what that felt like, there's no way I would have given into doing everything you wanted to do. Cause I'm like, no, this doesn't feel right. This isn't how it should be. Wow. That's so, so good. I do have a game.

16:33 I want us to play on this episode, and I'm very excited. I'm going to call this the lost and found game. And while we play it, I will suggest to all of our friends and listeners, this is something you can do as well. Here's what you can do in your romantic relationship of any kind. I'm so curious. Play the lost and found game. Okay. Where and when and what have you felt you have lost? What part of you do you feel like has been either diminished or made small that you want to bring back? And then conversely, has there been anything that you have found again, rediscovered again? And maybe it's the same thing. It's what you've lost, but you're also rediscovering and finding again. That's fair too. Wow. You want me to answer those right now? Yeah. It's the lost and found game. Can you answer them first? Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, sex, you know, like, I'm kidding. I'm kidding like that. You know, we've lost that. Oh, I thought that was something you found.

17:26 We only do it three to four times a week. And I just believe that we should do it every night. You know, like, Judah, relax. Well, yes, I do. But I want you to answer first. I mean, after being married to you for 22 years, I'm a different person in a lot of ways. And I think I'm a better person in almost all of those ways. I'm definitely more confident. I have a much broader perspective on life. Instead of seeing things so narrow, I see things from another perspective. One thing I have lost, I'll still go back to that story that my friend from college said, oh, you used to be so fun. I don't feel like I have as much room to be fun and spontaneous anymore because you fill all of that up. And sometimes I need to be more rigid so that you can have room to be fun. How about you? Thank you, Paula. Opposite to track. I think I found that the roles we took is I was the fun person. You were the smart person.

18:25 I was the outgoing personality. You were the deep thinker who brought profound clarity to my antics. Totally. And so those roles become galvanized almost. And so what I feel like I have rediscovered or uncovered again is that I'm actually smart as well and have a lot in my head to share. And I don't just mean the emotions of what I share, but the actual constructive thoughts and theories and concepts and ideas. So that's been fun. And I think you've had a huge part in that. And then I think what I've lost is at times the spontaneity, and I'm going to say this very careful, the spontaneity of life, which is so exhilarating to me, but I think was excessive. though I'm saying I lost it.

19:22 I also think I see it different now. And you know, to be spontaneous at 20 is a lot different than being spontaneous at 43. With three kids and a lot of moving parts. Yeah, so I think even though we've been going to bed at different times, probably half the time lately. Which we never used to go to bed at different times. There is a level of individuality. I want to watch the Formula One Netflix documentary. I want to read my book in peace. And you want to read your book and fall asleep at 1030. You know, I guess what I'm saying, what I've lost, maybe I haven't. Maybe we're rediscovering it in a really fun way. It's just repackaged. Yeah. And I think I need to realize that my version of fun can also be repackaged. I had a meeting got canceled yesterday. I went to lunch by myself, ordered a pizza and a glass of wine in the middle of the day. And just, it was so fun. We ended up meeting up at our boys basketball, high school basketball game, because I was doing a shoot.

20:18 and just the pure relaxation and joy on your face. I was like, how was your day? And you're like, lunchtime was amazing. I got my own pizza, my own glass of wine and sat all by myself. And of course, immediately all the alarms go off in my soul like loneliness, alone, isolated, oh no. And your eyes light up like you just got to Disney World. It's actually really encouraging for me to hear you say that you feel like you've gained a sense of your smartness. And how realizing that you said roles we moved into, which I think is the danger in adapting too much in a relationship, is when you find this role and you define yourself just according to that role. And that's when it becomes dangerous. And so as I stepped out of my role that I had put myself in unnecessarily, it wasn't just about me finding myself, my true self. It was also about you finding your true self, which I think is really amazing.

21:18 Really beautiful. I would have thought I was just giving you something when I was adapting to you. Instead of realizing I was taking something away from you, as well as taking something away from myself. Wow. At a wedding, I once heard a minister say, you know, marriage is not 50-50. It's 100 and 100. In other words, you bring 100% of yourself to the table. It's not a split. So good. And I think it only makes sense. you're like, we're going to make up 100%. So you bring 50% of yourself and I'll bring 50% of myself. And the other 50% of ourselves, we'll just kind of shove in the proverbial closet and pretend like we don't need it anymore. When it's our whole self that we fell in love with, with each other and continually bringing that. I find now great fulfillment in knowing that you're getting alone time because I know that that is necessary for you. And I think you have found great fulfillment in me playing golf with friends of mine. We both, you know, reconvene at night for dinner and it's like, wow, this has been really fulfilling individually.

22:23 You know, we're a few years away from our kids leaving and us being empty nesters. How do we not let this happen again? How do we continue to bring our full selves, our 100% selves into our marriage? And if we had just started over again, what could we have done differently? Well, I mean, as far as what we could have done differently, we could have actually just believed in marriage in a much fuller sense. I think we believed in it very much as like this perpetual compromise and just letting go of really significant, important parts of yourself to make the other happy. And I think we see it very differently now. Yeah. And then secondly, I want to play the lost and found game more. I want to talk about, hey, do you feel like there's a part of you that you're losing?

23:20 Is there a part of you that you found? Hey, can we talk about that? How are you doing? And is that a every month checkup? Is that every six months? I don't know. But I love seeing romantic relationships like a dance. And the music changes and the beat changes and the lighting changes. And sometimes the dance floor changes completely and who's around you dancing. But we just got to keep dancing and dancing with all of our heart. Yeah, I think when I hear you say that, I love that analogy. We've used it so often. But I think dancing actually means we keep growing and allowing each other space and room to grow. I mean, it would be horrible if you and I were sitting here after 22 years of marriage and saying we're exactly the same people who we were when we came into marriage. Oh, right? I mean, so that's not the goal. The goal is that we started marriage as a person and we are here 10, 20, 30 years later and we're now the exact same people because we have, quote unquote, preserved our individuality. I mean, that's a horrible life and a horrible way to live.

24:18 So the goal is that we continue to allow each other to grow in the way that is fulfilling to ourselves, but in a way that is true to who God made us to be. That's so, so good. Can I do one more fun question? Sure. What is one way you are demonstrating individuality in our marriage right now after 22 years? I mean, going back to school right now to get my master's degree. I know for me, going to school has been so healthy. And one of the reasons I love it is it forces me to get what I need. It forces me to get alone time where I'm sitting, studying, learning. And something that really just fills me up has been really, really incredible. You did not initiate anything about it. It was something that I needed to do for myself. And I pursued it and went and did it.

25:10 And I think you doing some projects apart from me where you get to exercise that smartness has been so great and good for you. I think you're enjoying the benefits of it, but it actually has nothing to do with you. Oh, the conversations we have are powerful and pithy for sure. There's some business partnerships that I have and endeavors that you're like, hey, go do that. I'm really proud of that. That's definitely one way in 22 years that I'm practicing individuality. And I think that would be a really cool question as a takeaway and a toolkit for our friends and listeners to say, hey, hold on a second. it. What's one way you're preserving individuality in this romantic relationship? Why? And how much are you practicing that? Because we see that as a huge win and a deepening of the beauty that is the relationship. Yeah. And I think what has to go along with that is we have to appreciate and love who God made us to be. Strengths Finder book, I feel like I talk about this so often, one of the most profound things I've read said that so often we don't know the things we're good at because the things that we are good at come naturally to us. And so I find myself just in awe of the things that you do, that you're great at, that are hard for me. And as silly as it sounds, I think I genuinely need to spend more time being grateful for and in awe of the things that I'm good at and that come easily to me as a way to preserve individuality and to honor God in that process.

26:36 And probably through gratitude, just say, God, thank you for making me more introverted and quiet. Thank you for enabling me to see the world this way and to want to put together how things work and don't work. And just being in gratitude for who I am. I'm always grateful for who you are, but I think I need to be more grateful for who I am and not take those strengths for granted, if that makes sense. And I think my commitment too is that I want to be the romantic partner in your life who identifies and speaks to what makes you you and what you're good at. And I think it's like wind in the sail when someone's like, you are so good at this. And you're like, I am. Thank you. I want to be that for you too. And, you know, I think when we first got married, that was so natural to do. Yeah. Because we were so appreciative of each other and everything was so new. I think you get in on it for a lot of years. And it can be more easy to be annoyed at the things that make us different.

27:32 Yep. And I don't want to give in to that. I agree. Let's keep doing it. So, so good. I love who you are. I want you to be who you are. I love who you are. And I want you to be who you are. And I am grateful we're not on a plane twice a week these days. And you know what? I love who I am. And I want to be who I am. Thank you for saying that. Do you love who you are? Are you going to repeat it? I do love who I am. Thank you for saying that. And I do love talking a lot. So that being said, why don't you say a prayer for us? I will. Jesus, I thank you that you made every single one of us. And you know us, our detailed innermost thoughts, the emotions that drive us and make us the things that we need. And Lord, I pray that you would enable me and Judah and every listener who is listening to truly honor you by honoring the way that you've made us to be. Help us to grow in the way that you have designed us to grow, not to adapt in unhealthy measures, but to really truly grow in ways that enhance our strength and give you glory and honor.

28:36 Jesus, we love you. I thank you that you are speaking to each and every one of us, that you're helping us on this journey, that you're speaking to us just quietly on the inside of our heart, that you would give us a caution if there's any way that we are entering into a territory that's unhealthy adaptation, that you would really just speak that into our heart spirit, that we wouldn't end up in a place where we're hurting ourselves or others by adapting in an unhealthy way. We love you, Jesus. Thank you that you're real and that you care about these real everyday details and aspects of our lives. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

29:10 This has been a presentation of OBB Sound, SB Projects, and Cadence 13. Executive produced by Chelsea Smith, Judah Smith, Michael D. Ratner, Scott Ratner, Elias Tanner, Scooter Braun, Scott Manson, James Shin, and Chris Corcoran. Produced by Grace Delia, Caitlin Plummer, and Eve Bishop of OBB Sound, and Kyle Vanuja of SB Projects. Produced by Lauren LaGrasso and Serena Regan of Cadence 13. Edited, mixed, and mastered by Adam Macias. Original composition by Colin Gilliard. Production support from Kristen Crosby and Dylan Martyr. OBB Sound is an OBB Media Company. Cadence 13 is an Odyssey Company.