The Key To Raising Good Adults — Not Good Kids

4:29 not. Honestly, the first thing that comes to mind, and I'm kind of surprised, is this deep awareness of our own weaknesses. And I think, you know, for you and me, it's our theology, which is your view of God. And I think how we view God is how he's revealed himself in the New Testament and how he's revealed himself in the person of Jesus, that he's a father and that he remembers that we're dust. He knows that we're weak, and yet he has such a soft and tender care and touch. And so I think, honestly, if I could say that, and this is a shameless plug, I suppose, for following Jesus, But Jesus seems to welcome the broken. He seems to welcome the fragmented. He seems to welcome those who are very familiar with their fragility and their proclivities. And so I think today, even in conversations with our kids, it's like, hey, I know how you feel.

5:26 I just want you to know, like, I know I'm big, strong dad. I emphasize strong and big there. Very strong, yeah. Thank you, thank you, thank you. But, you know, that's how parents kind of prop themselves up sometimes. And inherently, I don't think that's totally wrong. Your kids need to respect you and believe that you're a superhero of some kind. But honestly, starting to connect with your teenagers on the basis of brokenness is, man, it's nice to have a view of God that is redemptive in that way and that God works with damaged goods. And that starts with mom and dad. It's a leveler of sorts, I guess. Wow, that's such a great theological answer. Mine has nothing to do. That's the first thing that came to mind. Mine has nothing to do with my view of God at all. Actually, when I think about what would prepare us for parenting teenagers, I would say is our view of parenting. And that has been that our goal has never been to raise good kids. Our goal has always been to raise good adults.

6:22 Wow. And I think that has helped prepare us for realizing that our teenagers are going to make mistakes. Our teenagers are going to do things that are not wise, that are not smart. I mean, studies now show that your frontal lobe does not fully connect until your mid-20s. For guys, I think it's 42. Well, if it ever connects. But I mean, for a healthy developing brain and your frontal lobe is what enables you to make positive executive decisions or long-term gratification or not just doing what feels good in the moment. Not just impulsive. And so realizing we are raising these beings who have all these tools in their hands, but their brains aren't even fully connected. And so taking off that pressure that our kids are going to be perfect or that they're going to do everything right and realizing we're not raising good teenagers, we're raising good adults is our goal. And that brings me to a couple of days ago, I'm playing golf with two old friends. We've been friends for 15, 18 years, something like that. And we were actually laughing. At one point, I fell down on the putting green because my friend is telling stories of his junior high years when he was absolutely a nightmare. The story goes like he's like high as can be and he's over at his friend's house and the dad figures it out.

7:34 And we're just we're laughing, right? We're all in our late 30s, early 40s. And here we are laughing about something that right now there's a parent somewhere out there who's going through the very same thing. And they really believe the sky is falling and the world is over. And so honestly, if you get nothing else from this podcast about raising teenagers, here is probably the greatest thing I can put on the table. And that is do not overreact. And when I think about probably the biggest mistake we made as parents, I go to a complete overreaction. We were in a van in another country and we found out our oldest son is our firstborn. My heart goes out to firstborns. They get all of the overreaction. and we found out he was hiding some things on his phone from us and it came out from his siblings and his cousins as we're on this trip and we're in the back of this band actually in another country and you took that phone and just threw it so hard chucked it yelled and it was an extreme overreaction to a very not by you but by me that's why i'm on this podcast saying don't overreact Ladies and gentlemen, I'm telling myself again in real time.

8:48 And looking back, I wish we would have handled that so differently. With all my heart. Because what our overreaction does is actually keeps us from what our main goal of parenting is. And you and I feel like our main goal is not perfection, but our main goal is open communication. And if you and I overreact, that cuts down and cuts off open communication. And can I say that I think my overreaction there probably, God, this is humiliating, had more to do with me than even my son. That this reflected, I don't even mean publicly, but internally that somehow I had failed. And I just was reacting to that, my own failure. And this is not the point. The point is our beautiful, wonderful son that we're trying to make a productive adult who really knows the ways of Jesus and love. And it's embarrassing to admit that it was a very selfish act.

9:43 I love that you said that and admitted it. And although my overreaction was different, it was also an overreaction. And I could not agree more. My overreaction had much more to do with my perceived failure on my part than even my disappointment in him and his actions. But it's so easy for us as parents to see ourselves reflected in our kids. And we need to realize that's not the case. How our kids act isn't a sign of our parenting. always. Yeah, this isn't just a science. This is also art. This is unpredictable, and each human is uniquely who they are. And the predictive meter fails every time when it comes to human beings. We're eternal beings created in the image of God. There's freedom and liberties and free will, and that's just beyond our wildest understanding and depths of knowledge. And treating people like if you insert one thing, you'll always get out another thing. Like people are ATMs or vending machines and they're just not.

10:39 They're real humans. And as soon as you get one kid figured out, then you have your second or your third who are their own unique individuals. And you have to figure out the process all over again. And so that has been so helpful for us. So realizing our goal is not perfection, but our goal is open communication. so now that we've talked about what not to do to foster open communication which is overreacting what do you think is important to promote communication with our kids in honesty and open dialogue and conversation from them to us? There's so many things. And I don't know why, but when you ask that question, I immediately go to the parent who right now feels like the walls of deep connection and communication have already started to go up.

11:41 And there's already a distance beginning to develop and grow between them and their child and their teenager. And my heart breaks. And I think we can relate to that. How do you kind of break down some of the callus and the walls that begin to develop so naturally as a teenager? Because I think if we think back to being teenagers, you often think, my parents just can't relate. They have no idea. And I think the technological gap is very real too. I think our kids are kind of like, you don't even know how to fix Apple TV. You don't even understand Amazon. And you're trying to understand me? Like I've been raised in the technological age. You know, you still can't even spell Twitter. You know, it's just there is that divide. And so I think that's the first kind of impulse that I get is, boy, how do we fill that divide? How do we bridge that divide? How do we bridge that divide? You know, I think about that proverb that says, above all else, get understanding. In other words, the most important thing to garner, to get, is understanding.

12:39 Trying to understand what is it like to be a teenager in 2022. And I think probably the most breakthrough we've had of getting our kids to crack open their shell and begin to. You're literally about to do, that's exactly where I was going. Explain to us what's really happening on the inside is when we have said, I can't imagine how hard it is to be a teenager in 2022. I can't even begin to fathom how difficult it is. You're heroic. Everything that you guys are facing, what you're dealing with from the technology that's coming at you to this pandemic, to a mental health crisis, to everything the world is facing. you kids are our heroes. And at least having that understanding that we can understand how hard it is for them right now. Absolutely. And then posturing ourselves after saying that in a listening setting, just say, no right or wrong answers here. Just start to share. What is it like? What are you facing? What are you feeling? What are you going through? What do you see? How do you see the world? Are you okay? I can't imagine that you are really totally, completely like, well, that's changed us. That's changed us as parents. And I think it has brought, I don't know if there's such thing as shortcuts, but man, it seems to really accelerate the process of connecting with our teenagers. Yeah. And don't you think, even as you're saying that, I realized that we have to have 99 conversations about basketball and we have a divided house between Clippers and Lakers between our two sons. And so they get very heated around the dinner table and hearing about their assignments. And it seems to take 99 conversations about arbitrary, could be meaningless in the grand scheme of life and what's happening in their soul.

14:21 It's almost like it takes 99 of those to get to one of those really deep, meaningful, purposeful conversations where they do begin to open up and talk about what's going on. Yeah. It's like there's an internal care meter in teenagers. It's like, oh, you care about the sports team I care about. Oh, you care about study hall today. Oh, you care about that we don't have the right shorts for our basketball team in school. Oh, you care about my nails. Oh, you care about Billie Eilish. Okay, cool. Oh, when you ask about how I'm really doing, I bet you care too. That's kind of how I see it as like all of this is little baby investments. It's like dropping $1.50 off at the bank. You know, you're like, well, I don't know if $1.50 is going to really improve my bank account, but that compound interest starts to build. And then when you really need to make a withdrawal and say, tell me how you're really doing, there seems to, not always, but there's been moments it's like, oh, this is rolling out like a waterfall, like a river it's pouring out.

15:20 And I will say, you got to take the good with the not so good. There are moments we've been like, tell us how you're doing. And it's like, all right, I think a little trickle of water just came out. That's about it. And we've not pushed at times. We've tried to not force the response. And that's been a learning. You do a much better job of that than I do. Well, kid by kid, between our two sons, one is more like me and the other is more like you. And in some ways... One is exactly you and one is exactly me. All right. Not exactly. In some ways, it's easier to talk to the one who's like yourself. And it's a whole lot easier to talk to the one who is like your spouse. You're the love of my life. And so. But it's also like, if I'm just going to go chill, it's so much easier sometimes to go chill with the one like you. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, it's easier for me to chill with the one like you too. Yeah, yeah. Because you're like, I married you. I really like you. So like, let's go hang with the one that's like you.

16:12 And then the one that's like me, you're like, I'm going to kill this child. Well, because the things you don't like about yourself when you see them in your children, it's, it's. There it is. Looking in the mirror. It's looking in the mirror and it's everything to try to rid them of this life of pain, realizing if you carry this... Don't take this path! It's steep and scary! But you realize there is just something to the wiring in the way that we're made and we just can't get away from it.

16:41 I think another thing that's so important about conversations is shaping our kids' worldview, shaping the way that they see the world. And for us, especially in this last year or two, it's been talking about racism, about privilege. Our kids go to a public school where they're some of the few white kids. They're definitely the minority is white kids at their school. And it's just brought up amazing conversations, but really having those talks that aren't just about how them and they're doing, but trying to shape the way that they see the world. You mentioned recently that we all tell ourselves a story. And what is the story that our kids are telling themselves about the world and their place in it? And how are we shaping that? Yeah. And I want to invert that question to you because, and I'll just make one additional comment, this idea of a worldview is not, will our kids have a worldview? It's not, they're going to have a view of the world.

17:47 The question is which one? And is it honest? And is it truthful? Or is it myopic? Or is it just contextual? Or is it just emotional? Or is it just spiritual? Or is it traditional? Or is it just custom? Or is it just culture? Like what is shaping the worldview? And of course, the ultimate goal, I think, of shaping your worldview is truth. What's the truest, most accurate view of your world? Dr. Jamar Tisby, who we had on our show recently, he said that if you take the DNA of the human being and you write it all the way out, all the DNA, all the details, it's like 200,000 plus pages. And the difference between each human being is only 500 of the 200,000 pages, meaning we're much more alike than we are different. Now, a lot of worldviews say we're so different. We can never understand each other. Well, we're saying, no, that's actually not true. The truth of the way you were made even scientifically is that you're far more the same than you're not. So how do you shape worldviews such as that one, which is anchored more to truth than emotion, perspective, or polarizing political views? Having said that, how do you think the most effective way to begin to impact, influence, and help shape a true worldview in your teenager?

19:00 I think first is, this is an old saying, but your kids will listen to how you live so much more than what you say. That if we say our worldview is to be kind to everybody, and like you said, we value every human on this planet, but our kids see us belittling people. If they watch us making fun of others, if they see us being disrespectful to a server that we're having at a restaurant, that is going to shape their worldview so much more than the words that we could give them all the stats. that Dr. Tisby could give us all day long, but they will actually see how we act so much more than what we say. If we say the worldview is that family is a priority, but they see you and I not treating each other great and they see that you and I don't have time for them as kids, well, that's going to shake their worldview so much more than if we tell them, well, family's the most important thing. It's how we act.

19:52 It's like last night, we went to dinner after the boys' high school basketball game and one of the referees was very advanced in age. probably in his 70s. For context, it was the worst ref game I have ever seen. And we want our boys won by 30-something points. So thank God it was inconsequential. Actually, what ended up happening is the referee started just give the other team calls because they were losing so bad. And kudos to our coach, both of our coaches. They decided we're not going to overreact. But as we went to dinner at one of our favorite spots with some friends, the kids started kind of saying like, oh, that referee, you know, he was so old and they weren't wearing their masks correct. They were taken out of the game and it got a little bit wild. I think it hit me even last night at dinner. Hey, we can sit around and be like, oh, he was so old, whatever. But it's like, no, that's not our worldview. That man is so important to God. And so even trying to make an attempt, you know, through my nachos to be like, those nachos were so good. Oh, they were so good. Guacamole, sour cream, you get it.

20:54 But just being like, well, you know, he's a little bit older and, you know, I'm sure he's not going to ref much longer. And, you know, he was trying and you could see our kids going, oh, yeah, you know, like we care for everyone. And even making fun of a referee, that little installment is just it's remembered in the brain. It's like, oh, it's OK, though. The exception to everyone matters. Everyone is of infinite importance to God is like an old referee who makes bad calls. No, there's no exception here, but it is hard. Kids are so smart. They don't miss a thing. And teenagers are so observant about the world around them. And they may not show their observations. They may keep them to themselves, but they are watching everything. They are these sponges that just take it all in. So what we do in the environment we have them in is so absolutely important. And I think we think that habits form over a long period of time.

21:52 I think that's how old people think. That's how people our age think. Oh, starting a new habit would be so hard. Well, guess what? When you're a teenager, those habits start very quickly. Such a good point. Like making fun of people based on your worldview that you're better or you're cooler or you're younger or you're sexier. I'm assuming on our teenagers that a little laugh at a restaurant post-game can develop habits. Yeah, I've wrestled with the thought of, oh, they're teenagers. they're just going to do what teenagers do. I don't think that's the way that our kids have to live. I mean, yes, their frontal lobes are not connected. They're going to do things that aren't smart, but as their parents, as the ones who are shaping them and protecting them in this world, that we don't have to just let them do what quote unquote teenagers do. We get to shape them. I also think one of the things that has enabled us to shape their worldview is old fashioned as it sounds and you know I cannot cook and we don't do this every night is good old family dinner.

22:54 Absolutely and everybody brings something to talk about that they care about and a big kind of rule of engagement for us at dinner whether the kids are aware of it or not is when someone's speaking no one else gets to talk and you know if you're like me I fit very well like east coast deep New York where everybody talks over each other it's like my biggest form of compliment but with the developing teenager brain and body and soul, we see it as so important that when our daughter's talking, that both of our sons are listening and caring and commenting even on the comment that Grace has made and vice versa. So if there's any laws in the Smith family, it would be at dinner time when someone's speaking, we all listen and engage and try to teach them that perspective. Again, I just want to be very, very clear here. If you came to the Smith household, you would not be taken aback by our amazing endeavors of parenting.

23:51 But we do have a couple of good nights a week where it's pretty impressive, maybe. Yeah, but just the power of that consistency. And I don't think you get to start when they're 12 and you want to get into their heart and mind. I think it's starting when they're six and starting when they're eight. And they actually don't have interesting things to say. And that's my question for you, though, because there is a really distinct shift when they're three, four, five, six. I don't know where to put the number or the age, but all of a sudden you're like, whoa, we need to sit down and start having face-to-face conversations, minimize the technology, if not completely eliminate. During mealtimes, yeah. Yeah, during mealtimes. Sorry, not in life, dear God. But when is that? Do you remember when that was for us? Oh, I feel like I remember when our kids were toddlers, it just takes so much physical energy. You just have to be awake.

24:49 You're chasing them around. I always worked full time so that I could afford a nanny so that I could come home from work and have energy to parent for a few hours. I could never go back to all parents of toddlers. May God bless you and keep you. And then you get this little bit of a peaceful season, I think, when they're in elementary school. And it almost feels to me that that is the season where you can take a rest in a sense when you're still parenting, but it's not the same so that you can garner the emotional energy that is required to make it through teenagers. So I know that wasn't an exact answer to your question, but I think there is something about that end of elementary school time that you're making a shift and really developing the habits that you're going to have as a family that are going to take you into the teenagers. Is the habit that everybody just sits around in the evening and goes into opposite rooms to watch their own shows or on their own devices and then never coming together as a family?

25:45 Or is there an expectation that at least one time every evening, we're all going to sit in the same room without devices and look at each other face to face. Yeah. And it's funny. We're all like, oh, my childhood. But I think when people say that, what they really mostly mean is right about 12 and 13 on. Some people are impeccable and they have vivid memories when they were four and five. But generally speaking, it really is kind of 12, 13, the pubescent, is that what it is? Years that you kind of your brain goes, we did this, we did this, we went on this trip, we went there, we had these conversations, we had not to say that's a perfect science or that's foolproof by any means, but just an observation that we're making. Yeah. I think we woke up one day and we're like, oh, we have like 12, 13, 14 now. Yeah. There's no time to wait. And now we start rhythm, dinner, conversations, worldview. Yeah. Yeah. And we're having this, as I said, not as experts. We're having this conversation as parents who have had, our kids have made some really poor decisions.

26:41 Our kids have done some really stupid things and we love them for it. And that is, by the way, they always know there's going to be consequences, but a consequence of any of their actions is never going to be that we love them any less. And I do think that's one of the things we've told them since toddlerhood that did work out for us, that you can never do anything to make us love you anymore. You can never do anything to make us love you any less. That's right. We love you. And that love is unconditional. And I think our kids know that. But there are just some really hard things about parenting right now. I think mental health and technology and substances are the top three things that come to my mind is just really practical things that parents are dealing with. And it's so interesting, especially when I think about technology and even mental health and substances, actually, these things didn't exist when we were teenagers to the level that they exist now. To this degree, not even close.

27:34 I literally had a car phone in my car when I started driving when I was 16 that I was never allowed to use because it was like a dollar a minute. I mean, think about how much that's changed from what our 12 year old has at their fingertips. It's interesting. Recently, there was a situation that someone shared with us where their daughter was not invited to come over with her best friend because her best friend had another friend over and they were just having a sleepover and their daughter was just unraveling because online social media, she saw that her best friend had another friend over and didn't reach out, didn't invite her, didn't call her. Well, in our day, you just didn't know what your friend was doing unless you called him on a landline and it wasn't even, you never knew. And that ignorance was actually wonderful and it was necessary. But now it's like you can monitor even your closest friends. Again, there's a layer of complexity we just didn't even have. And we have to ask ourselves as parents and leaders and people who care about other human beings that are still growing and developing their frontal lobe.

28:39 What are we going to do? And how are we going to help this generation that in a lot of ways, if we're really honest, it's very difficult for us to understand and relate with? Yeah. And that is where, when I think about our toolkit for our conversation about parenting teenagers, there's one word that comes to mind, which is not what I would have expected to come out of a parenting conversation, but it is truly and genuinely humility that as a parent of teenagers, we need to be humble and we need to know what we don't know. We need to ask questions of our kids. We need to ask questions of other parents. We need to not expect to do everything right. And just having that posture of humility is I think the heart posture that we need. If you don't humble yourself, it will humble you by the way, parenting teenagers. Very fast. I see emotion on your face when you say humility. Am I perceiving that right? It seems like you kind of got emotional when you said, I'm surprised that this is what's coming, which I rarely see you on the verge of tears. So I'm so excited. I think because you know me and I am a perfectionist myself. I like to have the answers. I like to do my research and have everything figured out and have a game plan and stick to that plan. And I think parenting has kicked that out of me. And I realized, no, I need to replace all of that with humility. The shattered plans of parents.

30:01 That wouldn't be a bad book for people. Yeah. When I say humility, what do you think? I think of obviously brokenness. And as it relates to parenting teenagers, I think of where we sit right now recording this podcast. There's really only two paths in front of us at this point. It's the one that says, I haven't done this perfectly. I've made mistakes. My kids belong ultimately to God. this is actually beyond me i need the help of god i need jesus or the other path which is i know what i'm doing and my kids need to work on some stuff and i'm just going to double down on that and here's the rules of this house and this is how it's going to go and the reason that your life isn't working out just like you wanted the reason you're in pain is because you're not doing this right you need to pick some things and one is just more honest than the other yeah that's all It's so true. And as you were saying that, it reminded me that the other thing that humility does is it enables us to admit to our kids when we're wrong and ask their forgiveness.

31:05 We have made that a practice. Our kids' whole life, we're not perfect. We mess up. You and I mess up in a lot of ways, but learning the practice of actually apologizing to our children and ask them to forgive us. Will you forgive me? I love you so much the time you overreacted with our son in that van and you checked his cell phone. It was probably not 10 minutes later that you honestly said to all of our kids because they were there, hey, I really overreacted. I got mad. Will you forgive me? And our kids are so quick to forgive. They really are. That sponge, that softness, that pliability that they have can work for us if we will let it work for us through humility. Yeah. And you know, it's interesting because I think what we're ending up landing on here, what we're saying is when it comes to parenting or really any kind of relationship, it's this idea that man please look at how broken i am please look how weak i am and saying to your kids you're not alone like you're just not alone you're not alone in your brokenness you're not alone in your fears you're not alone in your anxieties you're not alone in your overwhelmed emotions. You're not alone in being scared of where the world is right now. That's where dad is. That's where mom is. And let's be here together and let's hold each other and love each other and serve each other. That is in essence what we know to be true about our heavenly father.

32:35 And boy, it could be a romance you're in. It could be a business partnership. it could be a next door neighbor but this kind of posture is i think it's the most honest and it's it's changed our life and i think on a day like today where we had certainly not the easiest meeting this morning with one of our kids it's finding that place again of humility and brokenness that actually is is not thinking less of yourself it's not feeling down on yourself it's actually just being honest with yourself and those closest to you. This is who I really am. And guess what? Everyone who knows you, they're like, yeah, we know. It's okay. We know. We love you. It's beautiful. Yeah, it is. Thank you for that. Let's pray. Can I pray? Please, please. Yeah, Jesus, I thank you so much that you are with us.

33:28 And all the things that we don't know how to do, all the ways that we don't know how to go, all the answers that we don't have, I thank you that you are leading and guiding and directing us and that you are truly with us. Father, I pray for me and Judah, for every parent of teenagers out there, for every parent, for every person considering children. But I pray that your comfort and your peace would be real. I pray that you would surround us with your peace. You would surround us with your comfort. But I pray that we would not be afraid, but we would have peace knowing that you actually do have our children, that you love them. Thank you for your perfect peace. In Jesus' name, amen. And, you know, we rarely do this. And I know this, whether or not this gets in the edit of this episode. I don't know who you are or where you are or your name right now. But if you're a mom or a dad, a single mom or a single dad, whoever you are, and you're attempting this wild adventure of parenting, I just want to encourage you at some point today or tonight, whenever or wherever you are listening to this, that you actually physically do what I'm about to encourage you to do because I've done it.

34:40 And it's literally like your palms go to heaven. You put them out in front of you, your hands, and you say something to the effect of, God, I'm letting go here. I'm definitely not in control of my kids or even my own life. And I really trust you that your involvement will make all the difference. And my kids belong to you. that right there, that little act has, it's helped me sleep at night. It's helped me get up in the morning and live another day. So I'll leave that with you. Something for you to consider. Parents, you're heroic.