The Paradox of Plenty: Navigating Choice in the Quest for Freedom

0:03 Okay, you have... All right. All right. How are we doing? Good. I have not seen you this week at all. I know. Oh, my God. Also, you... And when I say, oh, my God, I'm really crying out to them. People get offended. I know. And also, you've had a cold, and so we haven't been able to kiss. Yeah, I'm a little congested. And I just... We just kissed in the kitchen, and it was like... It meant a lot to you? Yes, but it was... You think it'll lead to other things? Yeah, like that kiss was like not enough of a good thing, so... That makes me happy. That makes you happy. Thank you for saying that. I love you so much. Okay. You have coined this and I have owned it. So the result of this, I blame this on you. But excuse my sniffling and my congested sounding voice. I'm so sorry. Thank you for that. That was much better. You have coined this, that if there was a sixth love language for me, it would be. More quality time.

1:01 Oh, no. but that is yes it would be additional quality time that no no that's like your top three love languages are quality time quality time quality time which considering that we haven't had a lot of quality time this week I'm so happy I literally you walked in my neck got stiff just talking about that you walked in I was like I'm so happy to be doing this podcast recording with you but if there was a different love language okay you've told me this I won't make you guess it has that I also have the love language of being right yeah yeah um perfection is one of your love languages i'm not exactly that yeah that i took that too far i admit that it could be a part of it i'm working but that's different just the good warm feeling of knowing that you were right it just like it just like goes down on the inside and sinks deep and feels so good so yeah you are good about not saying i told you so i appreciate that thank you i have worked on it so this episode today isn't about me being right but it is essentially something that makes me very right which is why i'm really happy to have the conversation is anyone out there watching welcome to my life um help send help as fast as you can i'm kidding come on okay okay real funny buddy when in in the smith household yeah i do not keep things my closet is very narrowed down to things that i actually wear you recently you did the same you recently cleaned your closet out and narrowed it down specifically very very well but before but before then it wasn't quite so curated yeah it was like you ran out of hangers and places to hang because i get connected to articles of clothing for instance uh in a nostalgic manner and it's like i remember when i got i remember when I had them.

2:55 Drew House, which I'm very, very proud of. My brothers have built, which is such an amazing clothing company. Like everything Drew House. Shameless plug, like they need it. But I just want to keep it forever, you know, because it's so sentimental to me, amongst other things. I have taken some of your stuff and like put it in another closet because what we are talking about, what we're talking about today really just makes me more right than you when it comes to the approaches of our closet, which is my whole goal. We are talking about today the concept and the thought of choice and whether or not more choice equals more freedom. And the premise that I am working on is actually it does not. I would agree with that. What's your initial? Then why do you keep such a messy closet?

3:48 Why do you keep so many options in your closet? I've been looking at our producers at this point just wondering if we could kind of edit this out no no well I would say first of all I don't really keep a messy closet I think over the course of some weeks things can get a little little overwhelming but yeah no I think I think choices sometimes can become a burden is what I'll go with right now at the outset of this particular episode. But yeah, I think we've had experiences with dear friends and people we admire and love that privilege to interact with or know. And it's like, whoa, the choices can be an overwhelming burden at times. Yeah. I remember the first time I heard about this concept was when President Barack Obama was in his first term of office. And I think it was an article in... Historic moment in history. It was amazing. First black president. Incredible. And one of the things that he realized as he became president was, I have a lot of decisions to make. And I can't even imagine the enormity of the weight of decisions that our presidents face, which is, by the way, why I feel like they age so much while they are in office. And even more importantly, I believe that's why the only instruction we have as Christians is to pray for the leaders and presidents.

5:18 Because I feel like the decisions that come to them are the ones that everybody loses in the decision that they make. And that just has to stink. So President Obama realized I have so many decisions. And so he limited all of his closet to black or blue suits and white shirts. And then he just picked out a tie that would go with anything. I respect it. You remember that? Yep. because he realized i only can make so many decisions in a day and so i need to give my energy to the important ones such as do we bomb this country or you know all that important wow that was a really heavy well this example i know but i really like like political drama shows and so that's what came that's what came to my mind like the president they're standing jack bauer had to. Right, like the president. Was Jack Bauer the president?

6:10 No, but in 24 he interacts with the president. Oh my gosh, that's so ageist. Yeah, he has 122 years ago but yeah, it was a great film. I tried watching 24 with Elliot, our middle son. Couldn't do it. He was like, this is kind of slow and boring. Oh! 24 was the most fast-paced. This may not be what this episode is about but I believe it needs to be. 24, I remember when we first watched it, I was stressed. Oh, yes. I was just like, this is way too much going on at one moment. And our 17-year-old, he was 16 at the time, was like, I don't know. It doesn't really capture my attention. Oh, no. That one really hit me hard. That's a little overwhelming. Okay, back to the agenda at hand. Yeah, the limiting of choices by President Obama was remarkable. Insert he also, his frame and demeanor and swag helps too. He looks good.

7:06 He looks great. Yeah, he looks great. In his navy or blue suits and white shirts. Hooping and stuff. Remember, you'd see images of him playing basketball. I don't think he played basketball in his suits, but he probably had a little bit more in his closet for that. Yeah, that's true. But I think the reason that stood out to me so much was it was shortly after that that you and I took over the church from your parents. And that was the first time that we essentially were our own bosses. And, of course, we've always had a board that we answer to. and we've had a very functioning board that we've run everything by. But on the day-to-day basis, we were our own bosses. And I remember thinking, I can't wait. Once we're in charge, it will feel so free. This will feel so great. We'll get to do anything we want. We won't have to run things by people. And all of a sudden- Now my neck's really getting tight. It's so tight. But I remember being a couple months in, kind of wishing for somebody who would- Tell us what to do.

8:01 tell us what to do and just make some decisions and choices for us literally shout out to business entrepreneurs and owners everywhere particularly small business owners starting your own business like now you know i'm not gonna out him but one of the amazing humans that are helping making this production possible sitting right over here has started many businesses in his day And I know this man would echo that it can be overwhelming. All of a sudden you're like, oh, I thought I'd be my own boss and it would be freeing. And it can be challenging. Yeah. And I think if we look at our world. Jason's not giving us any feedback, by the way. I can't see. Okay, there it is. There's like a camera right before his face. Okay. I can't see it. And I think the reality is an abundance of decisions is not just limited to business owners and leaders anymore. I think our world has now become a world of an abundance of decisions.

8:59 Remember what it was like back in the day when you wanted to buy a pair of jeans. And so when you wanted to buy a pair of jeans, you would go to Bellevue Square, you'd walk into the Gap, and there was the straight leg, the bootleg, the classic cut. There was like five different cuts and three different washes. And from that, you would try those on and decide what pair of jeans you were going to buy. Do you remember those days? Yeah. Yeah. Or you just go to the Gap and get whatever you need. Yeah. That's pretty much what I just said. You go to the Gap and pick out your jeans. Now, think about the process of buying a pair of jeans. Well, just the amount of companies that do denim is nearly seemingly all of them. I love it that you make it a fashion statement. The company's doing denim these days. It's really grown.

9:50 denim now you know it's overwhelming it's overwhelming um i was thinking was that not the point i was thinking more the world wide web oh the world wide web and now when i want to buy a pair of jeans i go online and i go to 17 apps and it can feel so overwhelming to pick out a pair of jeans instead of just going to the gap and trying and choosing from five different styles and two two different washes. Yeah, it's so true. I had an experience today. I was catching an Uber to get back here for our podcast recording. And I kind of got overwhelmed with the choices of the kinds of Uber I can get now. I was like comfort, XL, economy, small, big. I always just go for UberX because- Fast, slow. I always just go for UberX because it's the least expensive that I don't have to share with anybody. But I was like clicking on one to like- That I don't have to share with anybody.

10:43 And then, actually, I think this was last night actually. But I was like, wait, no, wait, what? Which one do I do? You go to the price points and I'm like, why is it so much more expensive? Is this really amazing? Oh, it's hilarious. Anyways, I'm sorry. I digress. I'm grateful for Uber, but it's never worth the money to me. To spend an extra $40 so you can have a different riding experience. I think I was set. The setting was on Uber XL probably because we do a lot of Ubers all together with the family. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Anyways, I actually went with Uber Comfort, food for thought. And the guy said, I usually drive Uber Black. I've got a really nice car. Oh, but you got it at the Uber Comfort rate. Yeah, the Uber Comfort rate. I don't want to brag. Oh, I'm trying to weld that. Oh, my bad, baby. Thanks for saving the family that money.

11:28 Barry Schwartz came out with, did research material called The Paradox of Choice. And his research and findings literally argued that the more choices and options we have, that it can lead to paralysis, decision fatigue, and literal decision paralysis. But sometimes we just cannot make a decision. Yeah. Does that resonate with you? Oh, it definitely resonates to me.

11:57 Absolutely. I'm like, now I'm just picking on companies, but am I the only person that's gotten a little overwhelmed at Starbucks lately? Oh, man. It's just a lot of drink options. I think someone did an article about all the possibilities at Starbucks. It's like billions of possibilities of drink concoctions that you can build. But I guess everybody has their drink that they love. But sometimes I'm like, I'm going to try something new at Starbucks. And you're just like, I'm overwhelmed. The foam with the olive oil in it. That was kind of intriguing to me the other day. I can't remember the last time I've ordered anything different at Starbucks than a grande decafamera conno. I decided I wanted a different kind of, you know, cocktail at Starbucks. And I just, I just, I just couldn't do it. And I went for a cold brew. Do you think decision paralysis and decision fatigue has led to the symptoms that, hmm, I see in some of your male friends who are, who are online dating.

13:02 and there are so many options of women to date that there's been a bit of decision paralysis involved. I not only agree, I think it's a phenomenon that is more right than wrong. And I think it's laughable when it's Uber and Starbucks, but it can be painful. My friends that are single adults have so much respect as far as I'm concerned because I can't, just to be very, very clear. Thank you for saying that. I just can't imagine what that must feel like to the world now. You now go to find your spouse in the world.

13:55 Last night, I was at dinner at an Italian restaurant with two male friends, both who are single, both who are very successful, and one's 30 and one's 25. And they literally are like, they think in terms of like women in France, women in England, women in, and I'm just like, and the world travel has, you know, so affordable and accessible. Yeah. I felt overwhelmed for them. I mean, think about it. When you and I were dating. Oh my word. Our decision pool was I had my... I picked you from a pool of 12 women. You know what? I couldn't wait to say that. And look how well it turned out. Aren't you glad? Oh my word, it did. You are one in 12, my love. Wow, I feel special. You sure know how to make a girl feel special. I know, I sure did.

14:47 You sure know how to make a girl feel special. No, but I had the pool in my church and you have the pool in your church. And the big happening was when we all got together for a conference, remember? a church conference and a bunch of churches would come together and that was like okay we're gonna see what other options are that's wild and that almost felt overwhelming imagine church conferences every day at your fingertips to to try to find somebody who's going to be the love of your life when the decisions seem overwhelming oh my god and there's just so many decisions to make. Do you have other areas where you find decision paralysis setting in, or that you notice it in our world or maybe in our kids? Oh man. Entertainment is definitely one that I feel shows. Netflix, for instance, among many platforms, you're just like, when you have that moment of, I mean, I sometimes would rather take out the garbage and clean the bathrooms than you say, find us a show. And you're like, I, I don't, what? And it's a weird sensation because you feel so almost illiterate because you're like, I've tried three, four, five content platforms now and there's nothing to watch. Oh, okay. But that I think is so much of what causes decision paralysis because there's so much pressure that if i invest two hours of my life into a show that ends up not being good it was my fault because i had great choices in front of me i just made the wrong ones and so it can feel so so overwhelming you're so right about entertainment elliot and i were trying to find a movie to watch last night yeah that's our son our son elliot we literally spent about 15 minutes and we we landed on a movie from 1995 that's that's that's where that it's a good movie though yeah that's i'm not gonna say because it's rated r and i don't want to offend people that's the thing i don't think i wasn't allowed i know i was watching it last night thinking i was not i was a junior in high school when this came out and i wasn't allowed

16:56 to watch it and here i am watching it with my son who's a junior in high school oh what kind of mom what kind of mom's that make me i'm letting him watch the movies i wasn't allowed to watch oh my word um how much stretching am i doing right now like i this is very honest in real time like my neck just really starting to hurt i'm sorry maybe it's like you're cold settling into your neck okay you know why i love trader joe's oh like i i don't i would i mostly instacart my groceries because then i don't buy things that i don't intend to buy yeah well and i do go to costco because they raise prices we need instacart from costco so i do uh-huh they're more expensive that's why i go and i but i make the kids go but i make the kids go with me but the one grocery store i will actually enjoy going to is trader joe's and you know why i mean you can guess because the topic of the limitation of choices right they don't have 27 cheese pizzas they have one trader giotti's cheese pizza or whatever they call their town memorize yeah whatever they call their town whatever they call their italian food whoa that's a crazy thought I think that's why we like boutique stores and why boutique things feel.

18:14 Even thrifting, I find. We've got a few incredible thrift shops around us. And yeah, there is this limitation that makes it more interesting for sure. It just makes it easier to make a decision. And it feels less stressful and overwhelming. And I actually have, I mean, I'm really proud of my thought when you mentioned content choice. is the pressure because we have so many options. It's what if I choose wrong? What if I don't make the right choice? What if I buy the wrong ketchup and it's not good? And I wish I had the other kind of ketchup. I don't know, whatever all the things we have, we have choices, we have choices around. Such a good point.

18:59 How do you think faith comes into this conversation? Obviously you and I are people of faith And we are, I think so often we're at the age where we are bridging a lot of gaps. The fact that you and I know what it was like when a Friday night started by going to Blockbuster video rental. And choosing your three video rentals for the weekend. And you literally walk around the edges to the new releases. And if you didn't find anything there, then you'd go into like the genres that were in the inside aisles. It's crazy for me to think that our kids have no idea what that's like. That our children and, you know, people even 10 years younger than us, all they know is the overwhelming sensation of Netflix. All they know is the overwhelming sensation of choosing content digitally. And there is so much of it.

19:53 So maybe I can't even imagine not knowing that isn't normal, but I guess it is normal for them. Yeah. So for you and I, people of faith, how does that play a role? Do you think into this where we find ourselves in society today? It's definitely in there. You know, I think specifically how it affects me, if I could just be so candid just for a moment for sake of conversation and thought. I think the Bible can be overwhelming as a sacred holy book. You know, you get 66 books within the book written over some 1600 years, 44 different authors, Old Testament, New Testament, different sections that it does feel overwhelming sometimes. And it's really hard to know where to go.

20:49 So thank you, Bible app for giving us the verse of the day. That's been really helpful for me and my practice, to be honest. How amazing was it when our son came home the other day? Oh, man. You have to tell that story. Oh, man. Since you mentioned the verse of the day. Yeah, we had had a really deep, meaningful conversation, and then it was kind of confirmed by a friend of ours. And then he said, and dad, on top of that, like a friend of ours called him, who's a dad, and has younger children, and just has really taken a liking to Elliot and said, hey, man, I just want to encourage you around this and this. and it was exactly what we had talked about. And I was like, Elliot, I didn't even tell him. I didn't tell him. When Elliot was telling me, I totally thought that you had told this friend about your conversation. In fact, I still haven't told my friend that he did that. Whoa, that he was just like, that the Holy Spirit just led him so significantly to call our son literally about what you've been talking about. And then Elliot standing in this very room was like, Dad, and the verse of the day that day was like really related to me.

21:47 And I was like, he's reading the Bible. You're like, this is amazing. No, but he said, I had just, I just prayed a prayer. asking God, da, da, da, da, da. And then the verse of the day came up and I read it and it was exactly what he had just prayed, which was amazing when God does those things for us. How do you think a multiplicity, an endless supply of choices affects faith today?

22:15 I'm thinking of it more inversely, which is how does faith affect all of the decisions that it feels like we have to make. Oh, now we're talking. Now we're talking, right? Because I cannot imagine. I mean, even think about it. With the 12 women that you had to choose between. Thank you for choosing me. It feels so special. It was a lot more than that. Oh, really? There's a lot of women that you had to choose between? Okay. I have just absolutely... Good evening and good night. You completely walked into that. Well done, my love. So between the thousand women that you had to choose between. Millions. In the world of our churches, even then, and obviously that's a very significant life decision, who you're going to marry. How much we, I needed and craved that confirmation of, hey, is this God? Is this God's choice for me?

23:14 Wow. and obviously I probably don't think about that when I'm trying to buy a pair of jeans now or you know going to a grocery store that isn't Trader Joe's and there's lots of options but the deep-rooted feeling confidence security peace that I have knowing that there is a God and that he knows me better than I know myself. And the Bible says about God that we serve it, that God knows the end from the beginning, that he knows the end of my life and he knows the choices and the decisions to get me there.

23:56 That brings about a significant amount of peace in the world that we now live in that has so many choices. I so agree. and my heart just starts beating extra fast at the thought that the advantage that we are given in understanding the involvement of the divine as it pertains to really endless options and choices we have in so many different verticals in our life and areas of our life it becomes um the picture gets really clear to me of how i think you and i have experienced uh levels of sanity that I'm not sure without God, if we would have some sanity and stillness in some areas. And I'm reminded, I think it's Romans 8 and 28, but this idea of all things working together, working together for good.

25:01 When Paul writes that to Romans, you know, walking in the way of Jesus, he really quite literally means things meant to harm you, hurt you, distract you, detour you, detract you. not just okay things, neutral things, positive things, but even negative things that come up against you or negative choices we make or dumb decisions, selfish, self-serving, spend too much money on a pair of jeans. I mean, it could be a number of things to very small to very earth-shattering and grand that God is both harmony and melody, working it together to make a beautiful symphony from the days of our life here on earth. And that confidence, I think, is probably aiding you and me, maybe more than we're cognizant of, and certainly more than I'm considering on a daily basis.

26:00 I really do believe in the sovereignty of God as it pertains to my decisions, great and small. Yeah, and even the ones that we make without explicitly asking Him or explicitly saying, God, what should I do? Which cheese pizza should I buy at Safeway? you know even beyond that that we just have a sense of hey the spirit of jesus is living inside of me and he's going to direct my every single step and every choice in every decision and the the parent not just our consumer decisions but our parenting choices our relationship choices are all of our all of our choices having that peace and that confidence and that assurance that i love what you said the orchestra would you say the orchestrator who creates that the harmony and the melody and turning the symphony you know i think most of our lives start like the when the orchestra is warming up you know and um i've spoken on this to our community and then all of a sudden here comes the great conductor of the ages and before you know it you're stunned at the symphonic is that a term oh i like it i think it is um orchestration of of the symphony I wonder if part of what's in play here too is the over teaching on prayer, which has taught people of faith that you need to pray about everything.

27:21 Totally believe in that. But almost as thought, well, if I didn't pray about it, maybe God didn't help me make the right choice. And so if I've made a choice without prayer, maybe I just have to deal with the consequences of the choice I made, which was not God led, spirit led. and the implications and maybe the complications are my own fault and I have to live in them, sit in them, and that's just the way it is. I don't believe that. Yeah, what you're talking about, the overemphasis on our responsibility of our own life as opposed to emphasizing the responsibility that God has for our life if we give it to Him. And I think that is the choice we make. Not if we pray, but it is, hey, God, I'm giving you the responsibility. of my life it's interesting because you went to romans 8 whereas i was thinking about romans 6 and romans 6 talks about you know why am i such a bible nerd why do i like quizzing you romans 6 is about the plight of man romans 5 is his grace romans 6 is the friction we feel with our self-serving nature and then romans 7 is this glorious display of how god works in our lives that it goes on and on.

28:37 No. It is to me. Romans 7 is about, God, I'm such a Bible nerd. Like I said, I have a problem being right. It's my love language. Okay. And we don't have a Bible in front of us. But I'm pretty sure Romans 7 is about the plight of man. Like, wicked person I am. Why do I not do the things I want to do? I don't do the things that I do want to do. Yeah, who can deliver me from this body of sin? That's Romans 7. I thought it was Romans 6. See, because you forgot Romans 6. Romans 6 is... Wow, I forgot Romans 6. I didn't think I forgot it, but apparently I did. Because Romans 5 is the grace of God. Romans 6 is basically we're going to be a slave to something. We're either going to be a slave to death or we're going to be a slave to righteousness. Wow. Meaning, and it's crazy to think that this was written thousands of years ago before all of our choices that we have available to us, meaning that there is a way that in our life where it feels like you can have all these options open to you, and but you start just serving these options that are just what feels good in the moment what seems right in the moment but all of a sudden your your options in life get narrower and narrower um wow as opposed to the way of god it literally the way of jesus starts with jesus i'm i'm the way the truth in the life nobody comes to the father except through me right that starts so narrow but then that life with jesus gets broader and broader and broader the more we say yes to him And more free and true freedom.

30:00 I mean, because to me, the ultimate example of that is, yeah, I could do what I feel like doing right now and I can kill you. Not that I feel like killing you right now. Oh. That was, well, I mean, maybe. Very intense examples that you could use. Maybe if I'm one of 12, you know. Okay. But if I felt like killing you right now and I just gave into that, yes, I have the freedom to make that choice. but I end up in prison and my options in life get very, get very limited. And I think there is something to that in, um, for us as followers of Jesus, having a mindset of either I'm going to have Jesus limit my options or they're going to be limited for me. And, and maybe if this is like crossing that line, you were talking about, about taking too much responsibility on ourselves. So please correct me if I'm, if I'm wrong or if you disagree with me, I'm just, just spitballing here, you know, but really having moments of saying, Hey Jesus, will you help me show me where my decisions can, should be limited?

31:09 Yeah. Is there a world where we try to create our own parameters around our decisions? So they're not around our options so that we don't always have a ton of options in front of us. yeah i think so i think so i think there's a distilling that happens in the way of jesus and in the love of jesus um i think love is in so many ways a guide through this life um and not have to but love to want to get to and i think love not not lust you know we could get into the distinctions and the definitions there, but this idea, you know, love is selfless. Love considers others. Love is as exemplified and demonstrated through the person of Jesus. I think walking through this life in love, boy, that limits the choices big time. That limits the choices and suddenly you know I'm not saying that walking a life of love um is enjoyable all the time there are weeks and months and dare I say years of my life making the love of Jesus my guide and the person of Jesus my guide where sometimes I just wish I could just do what I want when I want with whoever I want and but that's not um the way of love I don't like that you don't like that. I don't like you doing whatever you want. No, no, no. I hope you don't. No. I thought you were just disagreeing with my premise. No, no, no. I really like your premise. And I like, I like the fact that you've limited your options to me. Yeah. Because you love me. I do too. And I said to my friends last night at dinner, you know, these two single men, handsome, successful, 25 and 30, you know, the hard way is almost always the most fulfilling. And if it was easy,

33:16 everybody would do it. You know, some of these, these are not scriptures. These are not, you know, transcendent truths. These are just observations of the ways we move through this life that I think are innately true. You said something recently that really resonated with me that we all respect restriction. We all do. And yet a lot of the time our impulses are completely contradictory to restricted people we admire. I don't mean they're restricted, but they have limited their choices and options. And so we're like, wait, you don't drink? Wait, you don't eat sugar? Wait, what? Oh, wow. Oh, so that's why your skin looks so good. That's why you look so healthy. That's why you have so much energy. You know what I mean? It's funny how we all, I mean, across the continents and the countries, we all look up to people like that. And yet we sometimes rage against it in our own daily life.

34:15 It's so interesting. It's so interesting because there's this thing that in us, I think what we're getting at is a lie that we tell ourselves. which is the more options I have, the more choices I'm free to make, the more freedom I'm going to feel and the more peace I'm going to have. And I'm just going to feel like I am living the life I always wanted. Like we seem to tell ourselves a lie of wanting a life of limitless options, but is that a lie? that limitless options will fulfill us. It is a lie. And I think that's why the lottery ruins people's lives so often. And all the dads there, you can look at it for yourself because the lottery now is like, especially if you hit big, it's like, oh, I don't have to work. I don't have to keep track of the detailed bills that I had to pay. Oh, I don't have to have a boss now and oftentimes even incredibly talented people who suddenly come into money at a young age or a young space in their life because of their talent and then suddenly they um waste it hurt themselves and hurt others it's just very interesting observations yeah i mean i i wonder if there's like a minimum viable product so to speak in the amount of choices that we need as humans that do produce righteousness, peace, and joy, or that do give us that life that we want, which is the ability to choose where I'm going to go, the ability to choose to feed ourselves. So much of what we're talking from is a very specific Western context of abundance, you could say, or you could say overabundance, you know, when we start talking about, you know, so many choices.

36:04 But it translates beyond economy, for instance. Yeah. But there is a certain amount of choices that are, that we believe God gave each human being to make for him or herself. Yeah. And that, that, those aren't the kind of limitations that we're talking about. We're not talking about going back to slavery or going back, you know, or going back to, you know, so many people are enslaved all over the world today. Yeah. God forbid. And we're not saying that those people are any happier because they have less choices to make. There's not a direct correlation. Yeah. Some of those logical deductions do not translate at all. Yeah. But there is a, and there's grotesque abuse of some of this philosophy. Yeah, exactly. So there is all of us owning our own agent, our own God given agency. And that is a significant component to what we're talking about. But once that has been established and once that has been given, and once that's in an environment that what would our lives look like if we did intentionally limit some things more than we are, could it produce more peace? Could it produce more happiness? Could it produce less decision fatigue? You know, all those things.

37:16 Yeah. Um, I, I feel so grateful as we're having this conversation because I think when I gave the rest of my life to God, um, as a young boy, not really weighing the implications and the ramifications of what I had done at 45, I'm not as young as I used to be. And I now realize that God has, um, put a period in some spaces of my life that a lot of people still have a semi-colon, a comma or a dot, dot, dot. Um, the easiest example is, is you sitting here. I, I don't have, I mean, I have days like any man that you wonder like, what if I wasn't married, you know, or whatever. But I have quite literally put a period when it comes to romance, love, sex, infatuation, fondling, you know, you go on and on and on. We get it. We get it. Thanks.

38:22 Ouch. But yeah, that there's a period there. And that has brought me a lot of peace and joy. and sure I feel tempted like anybody else but that period that that I felt God said hey this is the human for you period has probably served me um more than I could ever actually fully comprehend in this life and I could go on and on in the list that I think is like you know divine I am a dad but I'm a dad to three humans period and God chose those three humans for us and yeah I can't I guess what I'm saying is the gratitude is pretty overwhelming during this recording because if those periods weren't there in these really significant areas of my life I can only imagine the kind of human I could become if those were dot dot dot I even think about our finances and how many periods there were at the beginning of our marriage.

39:31 It's not by our own choice, but we did make a choice. We are not going to go into consumer debt, period. I think with the exception of a car, but I don't think that's consumer debt because there's an asset behind it. A depreciating asset, but yes. Significantly depreciating asset. Quickly depreciated asset, that Volkswagen. But how that period just eliminated stress, conversations. It wasn't like, no, we can't buy this because the money's not there. And how much tension that eliminated between the two of us. And sure, we didn't get to buy all the things we wanted to buy and go on all the trips we wanted to go on and do all the things. But there was a peace. Yeah. and I think finance is just such a way where if you say no to certain things early on in your life you you do get more and more options and opportunities and um you do get more yeses along the way you know it's been said and the scripture declares it but I think I don't think the scripture writes it exactly this but that you know narrow is the gate um into a life of freedom the gate is narrow meaning you know jesus declares whatever you believe about jesus he taught about himself that he is the way he is the gate he is the portal he is the king and that's very narrow but the life with jesus is is wide open spaces of grace that are really really incredible and i wonder if that's i could be so bold that that is a a concept and a principle in life that that could really serve people wherever they land on the spiritual spectrum and whoever they worship just thinking in terms of um uh you know if you go through narrow gates they can often lead to wide open spaces but i believe those wide open spaces that come as a result of a narrow gate aren't overwhelming and they don't end in decision paralysis and that overwhelming feeling of too

41:39 much freedom yeah you know i mean sometimes i love you so much it feels overwhelming but in a good way not in a bad way and there are relationships that started with the narrow gate which is literally vows that you and i made to one and to one another to having to hold you only from this day forward i mean that's a pretty narrow gate to to walk through yeah i mean it's your favorite gate but I understand. But it's very narrow.

42:04 But the flip side of that is this wide open space of love and freedom and intimacy and being myself and being yourself. And I really believe that there's a lot of elements to life that are like that. Totally. That start narrow. I think sex is a lot like that. For sure. And, you know, I think of young people listening specifically, and maybe it feels frustrating. It feels frustrated that there's things that you can't buy or that you're trying not to have sex or that you're in a really rigorous school program that's limiting your time. And it feels like everybody else is going and having fun while you're here doing your schoolwork or whatever. And I would just love to speak life into younger people than us and say, go through those narrow gates with confidence.

42:55 knowing that there is expansive freedom on the other side that is not the kind that overwhelms and brings anxiety, but it's the kind that brings peace and joy. Absolutely. I think of the, you know, again, we're doing metaphor work here, but I think of Jesus multiplying that little boy's lunch. You know, it's here, all you got is a little lunch, but, you know, when you let go and give it to God, what he can do with what seems so limited and seems so little and seems so average when compared to other people's lunch and other people's feasts. And you're like, man, I wish I had more money. I wish I had more of this. I wish I had more of that, that God can multiply in his supernatural way. And, um, I mean, we've, we've allowed this conversation to mushroom to a place that's really invigorating to me because I think this concept that we started with this episode on too many choices, choice paralysis, really begins to take shape and you start to see its impact on nearly every aspect of your life and that mentality of scarcity or abundance and believing that God can take what seems to be so small, little, and insignificant and take you through what these feel like lean moments. God, what's going on? And he can bring you into, um, extraordinary abundance. Um, I think there are some people who have a ton of friends and I think there's some people who have a little bit of friends and a few friends, and we could talk about how that affects you and me, but you know, what would it be like if you only had one or two friends, but you knew them in such a depth and such a significance that it, it's these flourishing, fulfilling relationships.

44:44 you know there's just so much paradox here too in life we always think more is better and it's just not always true and yeah I'm going to pray in a moment for for listeners and people who might feel like like they've been trapped under scarcity whether scarcity of relationships or finances or all those things that scarcity of time feel limited yeah but that there could be a perspective change that actually that that that scarcity and those limitations could be the very path to freedom and joy and peace beautiful that people are looking for anything you got to say before i pray for them i love you i you're my favorite narrow gate that i have likewise wow all right that's all i get likewise i'm sorry you said that and i went back to the yeah because i was one of 12 you know oh god that's great my favorite disciple like what Okay, that just got weird. Jesus. Hey, we thank you that you are, first of all, that you are a narrow gate that we get to go through. And then you give us this incredible abundant life. And Father, I pray first and foremost for all of us that you would give us your heavenly perspective that limited options are not limiting and they don't necessarily limit joy or freedom or fulfillment. And in fact, I pray for everybody listening that if we need to adjust our perspective on thinking that freedom is going to come from more choices.

46:08 God, I pray anybody who would need to have that shift, myself included, I pray that you would continue to give us that peace in your heart. Do what only you can do in those mind shift changes that can really bring about the righteousness and peace and joy that you intend to give us. And Father, I do pray for any of our listeners right now who feel overwhelmed by life's decisions, overwhelmed by choices that are in front of them. Jesus, I pray that you would come right now and you would be that good shepherd. You would be that savior, that friend, that confidant that you promised you would be, and that you would give peace, that you have a plan, and you have steps, and you have it mapped out for each and every one of us so we can be at peace because of who you are. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.