The Question of Perfection

2:14 Q, you bring in your story. well perfectionism played a significant role in my life as well um i have some compulsive attributes uh for those that don't know if i get anything on my clothes i've gotten better i feel like i've grown a bit i think you've just not gotten anything on your clothes in a very long time but i appreciate your sorry did i just kind of throw you under the bus there yeah that's okay it's actually probably pretty accurate yeah i just can't i can't handle spills and my mom dressed me outfits since I was a very young boy. Cute little outfits. She called him little Lloyd, little Lord, Lord Fauntleroy. Yeah. Hilarious. Looked like I was British royalty or something hilarious. But anyways, I think from a young age, I couldn't spill anything. But as I've grown older, I think I suffer a little bit from what is selective perfectionism, which is more around my public perception. And so if suddenly someone's getting in my car and my car is not perfect, it's really, really stressful to me. But it's not stressful when you're just in it by yourself.

3:19 Exactly. But when it comes to sermons and preaching, you would know this. I am deeply a perfectionist. I watch my sermons over. Do you see what a perfectionist I am in preaching? Absolutely. Oh, you do. If you feel like you did not deliver a sermon, not to anybody else's standards, but to your own, it'll affect you for the entire next day. Oh man, I know. And I'm preaching a new sermon tomorrow, you know, so I can't think about it too much. But really my perfectionism is a lot around how people see me. And of course you compound that with the public post we took in terms of our job, whether it's this podcast, writing books, public speaking, leading the community. You're also extremely willing to be vulnerable. I mean, whether it's on this podcast or in a sermon or to your friends. Yeah, that is an interesting combination. Yeah. Yeah. And I am, but I think I see vulnerability as a strength, but like my presentation, my complexion, my body, my clothes, my commentary, I'll get in my head after a social setting.

4:25 Did I talk too much? Did I ask enough questions? Did people feel seen and heard and loved? And I'll ruminate for an hour or more before I fall asleep. Just making sure that I do that right. Did people feel the thing that bugs me the most is I feel like when I talk too much in a social setting, particularly people that I'm not super close with. You do ruminate over that. But I think it's interesting in the sense of, in the instances of your sermons or the instances of your social settings. I mean, you are the best preacher I know. And you're also probably the top three best person in social situations that I know. So actually in those ways, that perfectionism has made you pretty awesome, but has it been at a cost? I think it has because there is no such thing. To be perfect is divine. To be imperfect is human. And there's only one who's perfect as far as what our belief system informs us, and that's Jesus. And so this pursuit of perfection can be hugely damaging and detrimental to the overall human experience. And I think we have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly in this pursuit. The Mamba mentality, the great Kobe Bryant, his mentality was just like, be the best, be the greatest. And a lot of that is celebrated in our culture. And in a lot of ways, it's inspiring and rightfully so. But does that bleed into perfectionism that leads to deep disappointment, deep despair, deep hopelessness?

5:57 Feeling like you're not good enough. Not good enough. I mean, that is one of the most debilitating human emotions is feeling like I am not good enough, either me personally, or I'm not good enough at my job, or I'm not good enough as a spouse, or I'm not good enough as a mom. And if our standard is perfect, then we're never going to be good enough. Never. And so then that leaves us in this horrible cycle of striving for something that we're never going to achieve, but feeling like we're not good enough, which is actually a downward cycle. You know, Jesus said, I have come so that you could have life and life more abundantly. That the purpose for us of walking in relationship with Jesus really is abundant life. But I can see how the strive for perfectionism could so eradicate from actually living an abundant, joyful, helpful, fulfilled, fulfilling life and relationships and beauty. But it's so sneaky, right? Well, yeah. And can I break down why I think that is? I think there is this concept that the growth path, the growth pattern, you know, there's the obsession with daily growth.

7:07 You know, we've all been there. Come on. You're listening to a podcast that essentially is about growth and development. I mean, in good faith, you're listening because you don't want to be a perfectionist or you want to handle it better, right? So you're already, by listening to this, probably feeling better about yourself because you're investing. But I think we assume in the human experience that it is doing things right that will produce the most growth. I could make a pretty strong argument that it's your mistakes and failures and oversights that oftentimes produce the most significant growth in your human experience, where you learn about yourself, you learn about others. And of course, that's so indicative of the Bible narrative and the trajectory of Jesus and his ministry. He works with damaged goods. But the striving for perfection eliminates even the ability to not so much celebrate your failures or your imperfection, But acknowledge it, wrap your arms around it, admit it, and out yourself and say, but actually it was my lack of that caused further growth in my life.

8:18 When you say that, what comes to your mind or yourself? For me? Yeah. That I have improved specifically as a communicator from my biggest blunders than I have from my biggest successes. There's no question in my mind. It's not even close. It's not even close. The times I was overprepared, the times that I was underprepared, the times that I said stupid things, the times that I went off the cuff and hurt people, I would never be the same again. Is there a way that you can get the growth out of your mistakes without the agony of wallowing in your imperfection? Well, life's a matter of perspective. That was one of my dad's favorite phrases. You know, perfectionism is a perspective. It's a way that you see yourself in your world. and the way that you see yourself in your world is, I need to be perfect. I'm gonna be perfect. Even if it's only in one area, which for me, it seems to always be connected to some sort of public perception.

9:15 It's probably the man of God syndrome, the pastor syndrome. Like you gotta be this perfect man of God. Maybe I don't wear a collar, but I try to project that I do, that I'm different, you know, that I'm a holy man. Someone recently said, you know, I'm not a holy man like you, Judah. And I was like, oh my word, That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said. Oh, congratulations. And I was like happy about it. But then I was like, that's probably not a positive. But life's a matter of perspective. And it's interesting. One of our friends just said recently to us that her word for the year, she has a word for every year, is imperfectly. And that if she's going to renovate her condo, it's going to be imperfectly. If she's going to travel, it's going to be imperfectly. But how often we wait to do things until conditions are perfect, finances are perfect, or we perceive that we're perfect. I think shifting the perspective to say, what I'm going to do is going to be inherently imperfect. And giving ourselves that permission is so life-changing.

10:15 And this is such a, I've been wrestling whether or not to use this example because it comes from a pretty privileged position. So I will acknowledge that from the start. But you and I had the incredible joy of getting to build a house, like from the ground up, construction plans, architectural plans, all of it. But in the process of building, we had so many people say, it's going to be so hard. It's horrible on your marriage, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it's funny, going into it, I gave myself permission to do the job imperfectly because I knew I don't have a ton of time to give this. And we know it's going to come out and we're going to have made mistakes. Any house that you move into, you know, there's things, there's quirks about it that you don't like, but I think it's when you build it and design it yourself, you expect it to be perfect because you had a hand in every decision, but we just didn't have time to give that much care to every single decision. And so remember, we literally had the conversation. It's not going to be perfect, but we're going to enjoy the process as much as we enjoy the house. And we actually really did. And it's not perfect, but giving ourselves the permission to be imperfect enabled us to not only enjoy the process, but to handle the mistakes in an okay way.

11:22 Yeah. To just look at the outcome and go, yeah, of course. Of course it's going to be imperfect. And we're going to enjoy it. In other words, like, life's going to go on. We're going to change styles. Maybe the color we painted the wall. And that'll be fun too. I really struggle with perfectionism in my role as a mother. Whoa. Like, I don't expect our kids to be dressed perfect. I don't expect them to look perfect. But I so love them and want to protect them and want to keep them from harm. keep them from heartbreak and keep them from disappointments. And I don't think I'm a helicopter mom, but I deeply care about our kids. And when they have made mistakes, I have not been able to give myself the grace that I just made a mistake as a mom. I had an oversight here. I didn't do something right. Because yeah, sure, for a house, you can say we can redo it or whatever.

12:29 But for the life of our children in their entire future, they're not going to get to redo their teenage years and all the things that are being built and developed in them. And so learning to give myself permission to not be perfect as a mom has been very, very real. I think one of the greatest approaches that we agreed on that I'm sure came from you was this idea that we would not correct or discipline our kids based solely on how they made us look. And our roles, community leaders, Bible teachers, speakers, whatever, we felt like this idea of perfect kids was so prevalent. By the way, for parents out there everywhere, here's a little motto that we live by. We determined we're not going to raise perfect kids. We're going to raise productive adults. Who cares what they are as kids?

13:22 They're not going to stay kids, but they're going to be adults forever, so to speak, for their whole lifetime. And that freed me a little bit because I think both of us came into marriage like, this is going to be amazing. when we have kids, we have to do everything right so that everything is right for them. And now to see some of our teenagers go through pain, all of them now at this point. Isn't it interesting? We can have the perception and perspective for ourselves that the biggest growth is going to come out of mistakes, but to have that perception and perspective and faith and belief for our children that their biggest growth is going to come out of that bad report card or that ruined friendship or that encounter with substances that wasn't great for them. Think about all the conversations we have with our kids. We're always like, learn from our mistakes. Oh my gosh. So you don't have to make them. It's so true. We do that all the time.

14:14 All the time. Why would you do that? I did it so you don't have to. So now you know. Like you can just listen to me tell you what the consequence. They're looking at us like, it's not my life though. You know, even as they're saying that, I'm like, but not that we want our kids to make mistakes. No. Not that we push them towards mistakes, but not pushing them towards perfection and not pushing their mistakes onto us. Sometimes their mistakes are their mistakes, not ours. That's right. Like we could have done everything right as a parent and they still make mistakes because they're their own agents of human beings. Yep. I was having a conversation with one of my mentors the other day and he was driving when we were talking. And he's talking about how as he's gotten older, he drives different. He's like, you know, as you get older, the reason you are a little bit more reserved even in your driving is because you've lived enough life to know I could die out here. And I think as we get older, we're probably, if we're honest, we can be potentially more prone to perfectionism. I've had to fight perfectionism more the older I've gotten than when I think about my 16, 20-year-old version of myself.

15:19 And I don't know if it's because the stakes are higher. Yeah. More people count on me. You know, when I'm 18, I was just pretty much responsible for myself. Now I'm responsible for a lot of other people. Well, don't you think it's also an awareness of all the variables of life that you started to learn? Like, oh, this could have easily gone completely differently. Where when you're young, you're like, yeah, it worked out. Yeah, I made the varsity team. I was the homecoming king. I was the homecoming queen. Yeah, I got a college scholarship. Yeah, for sure. I got an opportunity. Oh, yeah. But these incredible opportunities and privileges that come along when you're young. You're like, yeah, for sure. Yeah, no big deal. But you get older and you're like, oh, no, that could have ended up very bad. I remember when I got bucked off a horse into a blackberry bush as an 11-year-old in Portland, Oregon. And I ended up in an Epsom salt bath licking my wounds. But you look back now at 43 and you're like, I could have easily gotten paralyzed.

16:16 I'm really glad that you got saved. Yeah, I'm so grateful. But when you're 11 years old and empty salt bath, you're just mad that you landed in blackberry bushes. You just live fearless. And that's just such an easy, carefree, fun way to live. But how much do you think the mindset of you can be anything you want to be if you just work hard enough contributes to perfectionism? Yeah, we need to just clarify. I don't know if we can speak to all the cultures of the world, but here in this Western world, that is a pervasive thought. I just had a friend a few days ago in a conversation when we were in a public setting and someone was saying that. And he's like, should we tell him that's not true? You know what I mean? It's just, it's not. And I always insert my friend, Bobby Wagner. If you know him, he is a world-class linebacker for the Seattle Seahawks. Still kind of annoyed at the Seahawks. Now still very disappointed the Seahawks released him. But I remember the first time, I think you remember the first time hugging Bobby Wagner.

17:12 He is just pure muscle. The kindest hearted- time I hugged DK Metcalf. DK and Bobby are great examples of, listen, I was born a certain way and they were born a certain way. Those two men were born to play football. I wasn't. I was born to talk about football. You know what I mean? And so there is a law called the law of your members, for instance. That's just one dynamic that's not acknowledged when we say that people can be anything they want if they only believe. That puts all of the pressure for the outcome of our lives onto ourselves. And it breeds perfectionism. And it breeds perfectionism because we think if I want this successful life, then I have to do all these things right and all these things perfect. And then we put it on our kids because we want them to have a good life. So they have to do all these things right and all these things perfect. And then we are just stressed out. We're never good enough and robbed of that abundant life that we're supposed to have. And I wonder too, you know, the goats.

18:09 Everyone's just goaded. Everyone's goat, goat, goat, goat, goat. Greatest of all time. With the obsession of figuring out the goat. It's such a cliche now. It's totally lost. It's white noise. It's elevator music. We've lost. Everyone's a goat. What's up, goat? Hey, goat. Hey, goat. But I do think that the goats in our Western world are also people who have taken significant risks and experienced significant setbacks and losses because the stakes only get higher the higher you want to perform in any field. But that's not part of the story that our culture tells. We just don't tell those parts of the stories. The loss, the pain, what it's taken. Remember as kids at the end of every Super Bowl, no matter who won, they'd say, you just won the Super Bowl, Tom Brady.

19:03 Now, where are you going? I'm going to Disneyland. It was this idea of like, you're the greatest, you're perfect. Now you're going to the perfect place on earth. But it's just never true. Even the greatest of all time in any field had deep, profound failures in their life of a number of different kinds. And sometimes directly in the field that they're the greatest in. Do you think we think that our happiness is tied to our perfection? Oh, I'm sure of it. Because we perceive through entertainment, through shows, through reality shows that are anything but reality, that that's the objective. If you're good enough, perfect enough, brilliant enough, bright enough, you will in fact have your best life. We would argue differently that the depths and dimension and beauty of life has just as much to do with the imperfection as it does with the perceived perfection. you so since we have both admitted to combating more perfectionism the older we've gotten do you think we've gotten better at it and what tools can other people glean from or learn from i'm gonna share a tool that i've never shared before but it's the most honest one that comes of mine because I used it today. I got up early. I flew in from Atlanta, Georgia today. A wake up was 4.30 AM and now it's later in the day. So I've been flying all day, but I had just a debacle this morning. I haven't even told you about, I was so flustered. I was running just a little bit late, maybe five minutes, not too bad. The Uber was waiting and you're always, you know, nowadays Ubers will cancel on you fast and then you get bad ratings. So you, you know, there's pressure on both sides here to be perfect with the Uber driver.

21:06 So I'm texting him. Hello, talk about how much has our star rating system led us to perfectionism. Anybody on any point can write you up for anything, whether it's how you are as a boss or how you're riding in an Uber or how you are at a restaurant. Yeah, but I think this morning, I was so frustrated. I was trying to give a tip and you can't only cash. And I'm like, do you have Venmo? And finally, the incredible hotel employee was like, I do have Venmo. And I was like, oh, perfect. I'll just Venmo you. and then I couldn't find my phone. Oh no. And so I am frustrated. How did I do this? I'm late again. I'm always late. I'm looking at the Uber driver. He's flustered. I'm like, man, I'm so sorry. And this Uber driver's now been waiting 20 minutes, unprecedented amount of time. And you're getting charged by the minute. Thanks for that reminder. Yeah. So I'm looking through all my bags. I can't find my phone. And I'm just like, bro, how did you lose your phone? You're an idiot.

22:01 I'm frustrated. I'm like, be better. Yeah. And you know what's amazing? If I didn't have the frustration, because I really wanted to tip the hotel employee, probably because I want to be perfect, I would have left my phone in Atlanta, Georgia. And it was upstairs under the writing pad on my bedside table. The pad said, don't forget your golf clubs, by the way. I wrote myself a note, so I didn't forget my golf clubs. But then you left your phone under the note. And I left my phone under the don't forget your golf clubs. I mean, I am a nightmare, by the way, an absolute nightmare. But because I'm such a nightmare, I actually ended up being a part of the lesser of two evils. The evil of leaving my phone would have cost me money, time, effort. But because I was late, because I couldn't tip, because I had to get Venmo, I was able to get my phone. So it's the fact that I was absent-minded that actually kind of saved the day.

22:56 And as silly as that sounds, my point is this. I'm in the moment of looking through all my bags. The facts are I'm cussing under my breath, okay? And here's a little tool I use. Hey, I tell myself, this is something to do. You know, you actually have something to do, and that is find your phone. Like in a moment of like a sense of gratitude or a sense of purpose? Yeah, a sense of purpose and gratitude that there are people, and I've had days where you have nothing to do. And I don't mean the good days where you have margin. but like it would be nice to have a sense of direction or purpose and as silly as it sounds even in calamity it's like I have something to do in my moments where I fail publicly and it's like boy that wasn't a good sermon man that wasn't a good shoot man that wasn't a good podcast but you know what I had something to do today and that breeds a gratitude giving ourselves something to get out of the moment, to get us out of our isolated perspective that we aren't perfect.

24:02 And giving us a broader, bigger perspective and moment is a tool that you use, is what I hear. And I've actually heard you do that in relationship to preaching too. You know, if you're frustrated about yourself, probably by about the end of the day, you'll say, but you know what? I know that one part was good. You will give yourself something to actually celebrate the positive. I have something to do. As bad as that was, I got to do that though. Do you know what works for me? I've actually learned how to use procrastination to my advantage. Oh, this is fascinating. I've always been a perfectionist and I've always been a procrastinator. And in school, I used to get on myself for that. I used to be annoyed at myself for being a procrastinator. But the older I've gotten, I've realized if I'm going to do something, I don't know why I think about packing. You know, we travel a lot for work and so we're packing quite a bit. If I give myself three hours to pack, I will take three hours to pack and obsess over every decision and try to plan my outfits and try to put everything together and literally agonize myself.

25:06 Or if I give myself 20 minutes to pack, I will pack in 20 minutes. If I start packing 20 minutes before we get picked up for a flight, I will get it done in 20 minutes. and it's actually less stressful and more enjoyable. And so for me, it's actually learning how to use procrastination to my advantage. I do the same thing with papers for school. I could take 10 hours on them or I could take two hours on them. And the result is pretty much the same. It's an A every time we get it. It's just how much unnecessary emotional energy based on perfectionism did I put into the process. And so actually using procrastination to my advantage, is that unhealthy, do you think? No, I don't think so. I think it works for you And it just kind of sets you free from, well, but it's got to be perfect. It's got to be awesome. There really is no such thing. And don't you think at a deeper level, at an emotional level, we need to work on not getting our value from the results of our life?

26:01 Fulfillment and satisfaction from who is in our life and who we are as a result of who we're walking with, I think is just one of the great zenith moments of any human being. I'm embarrassed at the fact that I get value on a grade on a paper that nobody is going to read except for one professor. But it actually makes me feel more valuable as a human being, as embarrassing as that is to admit. I think it's honest, first of all. And I know that. I think when I preach a good sermon, the good vibrations I feel in my soul are probably that I feel a little extra valuable because I've helped people, helped people I love. Again, it's the what and the who, right? It's like putting the what second and the who first. What you do should bring you deep satisfaction, fulfillment, and meaning.

26:57 But when what you do is more satisfying than who you are or who you're with, there's a little bit of space there for the breeding of perfection. And don't you think a peace and contentment that we're growing from our mistakes. We're growing from our dinners that we have laughing with friends. We are growing from attending our kids' basketball games. that we're growing in all of these moments in our life, not just when we are actively pursuing growth and perfection and making ourselves better because we can be anything we want to be. And so we have to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow all the time, but instead actually just resting in these moments and trusting that we're growing because life causes us to grow. Growth happens naturally. It's interesting. We look in anything in nature. I feel like human beings are the only beings that strive to grow and make ourselves better. Trees don't strive to grow. Animals don't strive to grow. It's just a natural part of the process of life. We just tend to strive to grow when we really probably should sit back and enjoy our lives a little more. Yeah, I think so. And full disclosure, it's pretty obvious in this conversation that we're around a lot of high achievers and a lot of really, really driven people. And that has been true probably for many, many years.

28:18 It's interesting to note, we were just talking with a friend, this idea that all children play organized sports, that's as young as like the 80s. That's very new to this country. This idea that all kids are going to compete in t-ball or soccer or football or baseball or basketball or water polo, lacrosse. I mean, that's kind of a new construct where from a very young age, we are raising kids to compare, compete, elite, be good, be great, be perfect. And I wonder sometimes if it instills almost subconsciously that that in a lot of ways is what life is. And the proverbial coach, you know, kind of becomes that voice in our head. That's like, you got to work harder, you got to try more, you got to be better. Again, I think a lot of growth happens organically. If you look at the elements of the earth, if you look at creation, I'm reminded of the words of Jesus. Matthew 6, which is actually what I was thinking on today on the plane to sound incredibly spiritual.

29:17 These are the scriptures I was thinking on. But Jesus says, look at the birds. Look at the birds and how they eat, which is the essence of what he's saying. Like, you're worried about food or you're worried about clothing. Look at the wildflowers. How beautiful they are. And his point was, they're not anxious. They're not fearful. They're not worried. It's almost an effortlessness. We believe in that. I believe in the providence of the divine and God who is providing and caring and watch over. We are not the master and commander and captain of our own destiny. That's just not what we subscribe to. I believe that plays partner to perfectionism, which leads to exhaustion, sleep deprivation, et cetera, et cetera. Stress, anxiety, which wreaks havoc on our physical body. On our friendships, on our desires, on our career, on our wonderful evenings at home with loved ones or friends or roommates. I think our passion today, if we're really honest, is that people would have wonderful evenings filled with wonderful connections and contentment.

30:23 For a toolkit today, I'm going to give an ancient practice. It's an ancient practice that was initiated by our Jewish brothers and sisters. and that is the practice known as a Sabbath, which is also known as a day of rest. We haven't always practiced this if we're just gonna be honest, but probably in about the last year and a half, I've really gotten religious about a Sabbath just for my physical, mental health and wellbeing. And for me taking one day a week, trying for it to be the same day where I intentionally, I cannot do any projects around the house. I can't do any work, whether that's emails, text messages, and I can't do any schoolwork. That stuff is just off limits. And it is amazing to me how much that simple practice has actually freed me to enjoy life and to let go of some perfectionism and some striving. You can't accomplish anything.

31:19 Which is also accomplishing a lot. Just want to put a challenge out there just to try it for four weeks in a row where you don't accomplish anything. And just see what that does for your life and your mentality and your well-being. So there's a simple toolkit. Do you want to close this in prayer? Oh, I wanted you to close this in prayer. I feel like you're on a roll and I would love that. Okay. Jesus, we thank you so much that you are with us. Yes. And you see the very depths of the inside of who we are. And Lord, we do come to you knowing and believing that you want us to have abundant life, that you want us to have a life that's free from striving, where we feel like we are enough and we're doing enough because you are enough. Father, I pray for myself, for Judah, for every listener that you would give us peace, give us a true sense of deep peace that what we are doing right now is enough, truly because of what you have done.

32:17 Lord, I pray that for every listener, you would just give us one practical thought and one idea for how we can not let perfectionism be a prison, but really how we can be free from this trap and free from this prison. And we thank you, Jesus, that you're with us, that you care about every detail of our lives. In your name, amen. Amen.

32:39 This has been a presentation of OBB Sound, SB Projects, and Cadence 13. Executive produced by Chelsea Smith, Judah Smith, Michael D. Ratner, Scott Ratner, Elias Tanner, Scooter Braun, Scott Manson, James Shin, and Chris Corcoran. Produced by Grace Delia, Caitlin Plummer, and Eve Bishop of OBB Sound, and Kyle Vanilla of SB Projects. Produced by Lauren LaGrasso and Serena Regan of Cadence 13. Edited, mixed, and mastered by Adam Macias. Original composition by Colin Gilliard. Production support from Kristen Crosby and Dylan Martyr. OBB Sound is an OBB Media Company. Cadence 13 is an Odyssey Company.