Trust Through Vulnerability

0:00 I remember on that me saying publicly for the first time, yeah, I've had flirty moments with coworkers and you called me out on it and talked about how that hurt you and that like, and the freedom that actually gave me to say, and you obviously said it to you, but to kind of say it publicly. Yeah. Okay, my love, today's. All right, all right, all right. All right, all right. So today's conversation. Yes. Is going to require us to tell on ourselves a little bit. and maybe talk about some things that are not our favorite parts about ourselves oh this is like fun yeah maybe because the goal for the conversation completely unprepared and excited oh but no you're actually so good at this naturally the goal for the conversation is this you and i've been married for 24 years which is uh what's it's our it's our what year 24 yeah kobe that's our kobe year of course but kobe not our death not our death year no no i was looking for your sports guy yeah our kobe year yeah and realizing how important trust is in a relationship obviously for us in marriage but with our teenagers with co-workers relationships don't really work without trust so but here's what i want to debunk today okay in our time together is the thought that oh for people to trust me they need to see all the best parts of me they need to see all the good sides of me. If people see how amazing I am, that's when people will trust me. When actually, I think the inverse is true. I totally agree. That when we are willing to be vulnerable, when we are willing to tell on ourselves, expose our own weaknesses, that is actually when we can build trust with each other. Would you agree with that premise? As I say that, is there a story or thought that comes to mind that illustrates the point for you? Either a time when I was vulnerable or you were or oh man i mean i have some some recent um ones i mean frankly we are going on a date night tonight yes i'm so excited trying to do you made reservations i made reservations i

2:06 don't want to brag and actually it's a it's an award winning restaurant not that i knew that we saw it in an ad in the magazine how old are we we don't see it on instagram well you came to me And you're like, I saw this ad. And then, by the way, you didn't tell me where it was in the magazine. So I found it in the magazine and got it. Yeah. Well, anyways. Anyways, we're going on a date tonight. We're going on a date in three hours. And we went dancing last week for our date at one of our favorite spots. And it was the next day, I think. Again, this is just last week. You grabbed me. We were in the car. Actually, we just pulled up, I think, on our way to our daughter's volleyball game. And he said, hey, I need you to look at me. I literally grabbed your face. He grabbed my face. I'm like, look at my eyeballs. Look at my eyeballs. I need that once a week.

3:02 I need, this is me saying I need that. Now, in 24 years of marriage, I have come to discover that it is difficult for you to express need. Like, I need this. I need time with you. You have incredible decorum and you never want to be difficult or problematic. Or manipulative or feel like I'm trying to get you to do what I want. So oftentimes we will go, or at least recently, it's as if we have been, it's as if, I don't know why I said that, but we really have been without date night for a few weeks in a row and kind of out of sight, out of mind, which is a horrific way to describe why you don't do date night. But life has just been pretty full and the week will get down and we're like, oh, man, we didn't go on a date. That's weird. And it really is my responsibility.

3:54 I'm outing myself, hopefully. But yeah, that was a vulnerable moment that resonated with me and meant a lot because you were expressing, hey, I need this. And I think you also need the anticipation and expectation of going on a date night. Where we're going to go. we're gonna do and and though we may have not got the right restaurant you asked for at least we've never been which is exciting for you i love adventure um but but yeah you recently expressing need um has meant a lot to me it's so interesting to me that that's the story our neighbors little did you hear that it's like a vacuum our neighbors are setting up for halloween right now and which is a big deal in this neighborhood and they have uh these three skeleton figures that talk to each other but it's all funneled yeah i was like vacuuming right now during our podcast how dare sir how dare our neighbors vacuum and we could hear them no we love our neighbors they're so cool it's really interesting to me that when i asked that question you brought up a time when i talked about need which i think is so accurate but my filter just talked was just thinking vulnerability and expressing weakness but i think you're so right in that expressing need is a huge part of it. Because for me, thinking about expressing weakness, I remembered when we took over the church from your parents. Sorry, now, like I hate being that pastor who just says stories from like a way long time ago. But for me, this was the first time I admitted this kind of thing to you. And so it was so marking and such a big deal. We had taken over the church from your parents grace was our baby girl was six months old and within the first six months so probably between she was six months in a year we had so she would have been we probably had a one three and five year old so parenting is full on taking over new responsibility i'm wondering if if i'm good enough can we handle this pressure new responsibility your dad was in this final stages of fighting cancer at that time like the pressure of life just seemed like a lot and i

6:03 remember just having such distinct temptations and polls to just go cheat on you and in in various ways that we can get into if you want to ask about it or you know i'm sure that's what the episode gets dedicated to all the ways you consider cheating on me i just i hate it when like people are trying to admit weaknesses but they use it in so many euphemisms that it's never yeah like specific or it doesn't feel real. It's just not that real. But it was a very real pull for me. And I had talked to, you know, pastor about it and talked, you know, trying to get some accountability, trying to get some prayer. And I remember thinking, if I admit this to Judah, it'll make him feel like he's not a good enough husband. It'll make him feel insecure. It'll make him feel like he's doing something. You know, all of these things I thought, if I admit this vulnerability, then it's not going to go so well. But finally, I just couldn't, I don't know, just contain it anymore. I felt like it needed to share that with you. And that was such an incredible, beautiful moment for us in our marriage. And all of a sudden, I didn't feel like I was carrying this burden by myself. It's like, oh, we're carrying it together.

7:15 And I never would have expected that sharing that with you would have built trust in the way that it Oh, man. And it's such an interesting turn of events in terms of how this happens in the human condition, in the human journey. We are so prone to accuse. You haven't been there. You didn't do this. All the while underneath, we either need to share something that's really troubling and disturbing, or we need to express that we need something. And I remember that instance of you not just saying, hey, I have been tempted to cheat or just escape or get out of the pressure, you know, whatever. But you were once again good at saying, here's what I need from you. You know, I need and there's even been times where you've coached me enough to say, I just need your arms around me right now.

8:16 I just need you to listen. I don't really need you to fix me. I just need you to tell me it's going to be OK. And is absolutely as humiliating as this is to admit. Coaching in real time is another thing we don't do in culture. You know, we'll coach someone. By the way, preachers. what you're saying is preachers are famous for like back in 1988, God sent me free from, you know, but no one wants to talk about this week. No one wants to in real time admit what they're facing, going through, but I have to applaud you. And it has meant a lot. You've as frustrating as it is sometimes, particularly when you're in the moment, like, can you just hold me right now? And it's like, I don't want to hold you right now. I want to fight or, or tell you my point of view or what's wrong but it's like okay this is what you need right now in real time and that that has meant a lot it's been a level of vulnerability that's even different than here's my weakness but it's like here's what i need and and weakness is one thing but but saying something you need from another human is uh sometimes is it's it's like it feels uh you feel more naked you feel more awkward because because it's it's it's also like when you coach me in real time hey this is what i really need right now it's like well it's either gonna happen or it's not and if it doesn't how difficult will that be it is pretty crazy to me that 24 years in it is still hard to admit i need something from you. I wonder why I would have thought it would be easy by now, right?

9:53 That it still wouldn't take vulnerability. I think it'd be easy for me to hear it and share what I need as well. But it's funny that that story, you remember me asking for what I needed because I don't remember that part. I do remember though, your embracing of me and your acceptance of me. And I do think if you would have shamed me, if you would have belittled me, if you would have just like i can't believe i can't believe that or if you would have made that moment about you about well but you didn't you didn't in this moment however you responded because you didn't do those two things you let it be about me and you comforted me and listened to me and did all those things that it opened me up to be able to continue to be honest and vulnerable with you And I think that was really fantastic. It precipitates more.

10:46 Vulnerability only leads to more vulnerability when it's accepted, received, acknowledged, even celebrated and acted on. I think one of the hardest things about vulnerability is who's going to break the ice and go first. Oh, right. In terms of relationships and romance and marriage and friendships and parenting and relating to your family, it's like, who's going to go first? Who's going to admit?

11:13 I have a friend who's so good at being vulnerable, and he has gone as far to talk about like, hey, I'm just feeling really insecure at this party right now with you. Can you not walk away from me? or something like, you know, stuff like that. And it's just like, whoa, no, men don't even talk like that. But that is so helpful and productive. And doesn't that breed trust and security in you? Because all of a sudden you realize, oh, I know how to be a good friend at this moment because he just said, this is what I need and this is what I asked for. And all of a sudden you realize, oh, I can do that. I love that you didn't just say that it's about romantic relationships because I think trust and vulnerability are so important even in our professional relationships. last week i had some things that i was supposed to get done by the end of the month some work responsibilities and the last okay i totally procrastinated which you know i am i have not done my end of the deal at all though and i'm like ah it'll be fine i don't really well that's not what we're talking about okay sorry about me but it got to the end of the month and i hadn't done my responsibility and part of it's because i'm a procrastinator um i'm a perfectionist procrastinator so i procrastinate otherwise it takes forever to do things because i'm such a perfectionist but anyway yeah it's kind of planned procrastination so is that procrastination you know that's an interesting concept we can explore later but the problem it is the problem with it how is that procrastination okay but i got it but the problem with that is some last minute things came up and so i didn't get to my responsibilities and we live in a world we're on a leadership team so it's me you and somebody else is on our peer and if i didn't do that job nobody else would have known who was not who was who was a boss of me you know we're kind of each other's bosses so to speak but i said you know what i can build trust with my teammate by just calling david our ceo up and letting him know hey i'm so sorry i didn't get to this this month and his response was so amazing to me because again it was like i could tell in our working relationship that built trust instead of him finding out for some other ways or waiting that oh chelsea didn't do her job's like

13:20 Oh, okay. I understand that. Thank you for bringing that to me. It builds worth professionally too, don't you think? Oh, there's no doubt about it. And I think the most secure person is the first to admit when they're insecure, which is so ironic. And I think we perceive weakness in our environment and culture. We receive weaknesses, you know, if you see it, if it's admitted, We got to hide it. It's spoken up. We got to hide it. And hope nobody finds out. Yeah. And I just think, man, I've seen it in so many different environments. I've seen buddies of mine who are elite athletes and they're like, I got a little scared going into that game because I don't think I'm as fast as, you know, I don't think I'm as quick as I used to be. And it's like, oh, that is, talk about a rallying cry for fellow team members of any kind of team.

14:14 Like when the leader admits, hey, I'm a little unnerved by this. I'm a little fearful, worried. The team can kind of go, you too? Okay, wow. We can all be in on this together. And that's if you're with people who love you now. I think the fear is that we are with people who will exploit our weaknesses if we admit them. And I would say that individuals who seek to exploit your weakness will find something to exploit regardless. Wow. So to me, the idea of being vulnerable and open and honest doesn't really break down there. That's not really a downside. That's a downside. But that downside is going to be experience any way you slice it. Someone who wants to exploit another human for their own personal gain and progress and increase in their career status or income, they're going to find a way to do that regardless. So I just don't think I have yet to meet the leader.

15:13 And we're all leaders. I've yet to meet the team member. We're all on a team of some sort who has ever expressed sincere regret over the use of vulnerability. And by the way, I think this is the future of leadership in this country and if not the whole world. We are looking for public figures we can relate to. And my dad said it cliche, prepare yourselves accordingly. we're about to wade into cliche waters, but people relate to your weaknesses far more than your strengths. It's just the way it is. And I think you've done such a brilliant job in this category, especially when it comes to your preaching. I mean, here you are on a stage that's literally elevated talking about Jesus and the gospel, which is to make us kinder, more loving people. I mean, not through our own effort, obviously, but there is eventually supposed to be some fruits of that. They're like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness.

16:10 And how often on stage you have admitted, yeah, I got a problem with anger. Sometimes I yell, sometimes I throw things. And for me watching our kids, our teenagers who are in the audience, hear you say that I've been blown away at the trust that that has built from them to you, that they realize, oh, my dad is here and he's not trying to be something on stage that he's not at home and I don't have to pretend like my dad is something that he is not. But the courage that that takes while you're preaching is pretty amazing. And I'm pretty blown away at the fact that you do that. Thank you for saying that. And it means a lot. And I think it speaks to the strength and love that I feel, you know, from the kids and from you. But it also speaks to it's not as much work to be integrated, meaning like, I'll say it like this lying is something i'm very prone to do but it's just too exhausting to keep it up because if you lie and lie and lie and lie you have to remember too many things you gotta remember and it's just so much energy output that i'm like oh i don't i don't want to do that i'd rather tell the truth and just be more integrated and then there's not these um you know potholes that you cover up with paper um that before you know it you're in a pothole you're like what happened is like, oh, I forgot I had lied and I had told something wasn't true. And then I wasn't, you know, or propping yourself up to be this, this flawless leader is, well, frankly, it's exhausting to sustain that. It just is. And it's not worth it. And I think it's exhausting even in our marriages as well. If we feel like we have to put up a facade in front of our spouse, the person who we sleep with, wake with, co-parent with, work on finances together, if we feel like we just have to be this version of ourselves that we aren't, that's exhausted. To me, it's no wonder that, you know, the latest stats, 40 to 50% of marriages end in divorce. Do you want to hear the craziest part of that? Yeah. Guess the average length of marriages that end in divorce. How many years?

18:20 well because you're asking i was gonna do like a lot a bigger number that i've been i was prone to do just go with your guess seven oh it's eight i don't know it's it's him it's the lord it's god wow that's pretty impressive babe you're really here thank you thank you just talking to producers you're really in touch with yeah with the human condition wow that's incredible well And probably what you knew intuitively is what I thought about when I read that number is that it's over that process of time, that seven or eight years that trust just disintegrates, disintegrates, disintegrates. And, you know, things are cited like lack of communication or financial difficulty, or, you know, are the two reasons that are cited for divorce. But if you think about those two reasons, what if during the course of those seven or eight years, instead of trust disintegrating, trust was built through vulnerability, through being your true self, through admitting your weakness, through saying, hey, guess what? I have a problem with spending. I get sad and I spend money because it makes me feel better.

19:27 Like, what an amazing, like, what a great way to build trust in a relationship instead of your spouse coming to you and seeing the Amazon, you know, and seeing the Amazon orders like, what was this? What's this? We didn't agree. You know, and that erodes trust instead of coming back and saying, hey, I can't believe, you know, I was just having a low moment and just needed to buy something. And I got this off Amazon without you. I broke our agreement. You know what I mean? Totally. And by the way, this translates across the board and culture for any kind of leader. Shout out to Max Homa, who's a professional golfer on the PGA Tour. He's got a great tan and a nice beard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got a cool walk too. But Max, um are you impressed i know what max homa looks like i was trying to impress you with my golf knowledge i i am very impressed i mean i know that you know that but i'm also impressed for you in front of everyone watching thanks our extensive viewership um but no uh max uh back when when when the rider cup was happening he's on the rider last rider cup team and and it was so cool to hear him talk about how absolutely utterly terrified he was in his sunday singles match where if he missed it, US ended up losing the Ryder Cup. But if he missed it, they would have lost it right then and there. And he got in his head like, oh, they're going to say, you know, I choked. And he talked about how he couldn't feel his legs. And it was so nervous. He can't believe that he even made the putt.

20:56 And it was just like, but it was bonding. It was endearing. Like, no question in my mind, Max Homa got more golf fans and probably fans that aren't even golfers because it's like for someone at that level of athletic achievement to admit that they feel the same nerves that I feel on a Friday golf game with my buddies. You just are like, oh, Max and I are similar, at least in that one way on the golf course. And that vulnerability, again, I think it's the future. I'm not trying to be a prophet, but I'm just saying the future of public figures and leaders and families and loved ones and great friendships is going to be, I think, bold vulnerability in real time. That's my prediction. I agree. And I think it's also an element of shared humanity. Like I didn't hear that Max Homa said that until you just said it right now. And all of a sudden, it makes me feel like, oh, he's human too. I have felt that way going in to give a presentation at work, going to preach at church, going to do things. I have felt that knee shaking. Like I'm so nervous that it was like 50 phones buzzing in his legs. But I felt like I'm so, I'm so afraid that people are going to see the microphone shaking and see that I'm nervous. And then they're going to think that I'm not qualified to do this. So I have to hide my nervousness instead of being open about it. And just that shared human humanity, every human has experienced that feeling, right? Totally. Oh my goodness. It's just so life-giving. I wonder how much that will be healing. You know, you look at where specifically our country is right now. I don't know about our world, but the polarization that's happening because of so many reasons we don't even need to get into. But man, if we could be vulnerable some more often, instead of saying, hey, we need to fix this and fix that. If we could say, I'm afraid, I'm actually afraid of this.

22:49 And then people on the other side say, well, that's interesting. I'm afraid of that too. And possibly, I mean, now we're solving like big problems for trying to talk relationships, but that we could actually come together and understand each other instead of polarize and separate. And if there was an institution in this country, we'll just pick on our own country. God bless this country. So, so grateful for it. But I think if there was an institution that is most set up to demonstrate and exemplify bold, real-time vulnerability, I really do believe it's the church house. It's the church community. And I think we could start with just the preachers, which is our own kind, so we're picking on them. But I do preach, and Chelsea does preach, and it's not always what I tell people what I do for a living, because they're like, oh, sorry, I didn't know you're a preacher. But why can't we start?

23:51 And I don't mean to take us off track here, but I guess I am imploring current preachers and future preachers that, hey, if you want to be someone who tells the story of God in a sacred hall and setting called the church, What if we all started as these sacred holy people who speak of the divine? What if we started outing ourselves at a rapid rate? I think it could really affect our country and really affect at least the younger men and women who are listening, watching and taking cues like that's what a preacher does or that's what a leader does or that's what a public figure does. Just out ourselves. We're all so worried about being outed. Public figures everywhere now. and we meet with a lot, talk with a lot. We're all worried about being outed. But man, if you out yourself, that can relieve a lot of anxiety.

24:46 Oh, I know for me, we did a podcast last year, similar conversation. We talked about how to not have an affair, you know, or how to not, or how to be faithful. I can't remember the exact title. I'm not great at titles. I just heard from friends even about the title. Like, that's crazy. How could you? It's like, wait, so, I mean, even the title makes waves? Right. This is where we're at. I remember on that, me saying publicly for the first time, yeah, I've had, I've had flirty moments with coworkers and you had called me out on it and talked about how that hurt you. And that, that like, and the freedom that actually gave me to say, and you obviously said it to you, but to kind of say it publicly that, um, it's actually just really freeing. Okay. But if you want to take your shot to call out preachers to be vulnerable, I want to take my shot to call out spouses to be vulnerable. that if we're envisioning what a world could look like to envision families where husbands and wives are not afraid it's i don't even think it's fear i don't know what keeps us into ourselves but just where husbands and wives have enough faith in each other and probably ultimately for families of faith have enough faith in god to be honest and open and vulnerable about big things and little things and to believe that that is going to result in the relationship that you could only dream of. And I just simply want to respond and take a shot and swing at. Oh, so many shots and swings today. Yeah. Just at why that is. You're like, maybe it's fear and like, maybe it's not.

26:18 And I think sometimes it's just the accumulation of pain and problems in the world. If you're married and you have children with your own children. If you're like us, our parents aren't getting younger, you know, so there's complication as they age. Your dad's been fighting cancer for years. It's a miracle he's still alive, by the way. It's an absolute miracle. So there is tension and stress as you age in life. And now our kids are not, you know, they don't have eight-year-old problems. They have 19 year old problems, you know, like they're 19. They're considering marriage and one 16 and the other's 14. And, you know, the pressures of high school basketball or the pressures of high school volleyball or family dinner last night, our kids gave us an education on drugs on their campus and like told us all that. Yeah. Fentanyl alone is enough to stretch you out. And so I, I just want to give a little bit of credit to, I think that there are spouses out there who are like, man, if I share what's really going on, the lifelessness I feel, the trepidation I have around, the anxiety around our money, I think I might just crush my spouse.

27:38 And so now we can argue left, right and center that that in fact is not true. but yet that sensation is true and real. And it's like, man, I know that this would be a lot for my spouse right now. And I want to give credit because I think there's a lot of spouses out there or a lot of best friends out there, a lot of coworkers out there, a lot of loved ones out there, a lot of grandkids out there. I don't want to tell grandpa what I'm really going through because, you know, grandpa's going through. Or, you know, I don't want to tell mom and dad what I'm facing at 16 because I know they got a lot of stress. The other night, our 16-year-old said to me, you know, his body posture was just distraught. And I was like, buddy, what's going on? What's going on? Later, he said to me, you know, dad, I was just trying to gauge whether or not you had the bandwidth, the space to dig in and talk with me about something. And he wanted to talk to you about something vulnerable. Yeah, something very vulnerable.

28:30 But he was like, I don't want to, you know, and obviously he's emotionally intelligent, but it's also like so indicative of where we are in society and culture. There is so much data, so much technological portals that tell us about all the tragedy, all the trauma, all the loss, all the pain, natural disasters that I think sometimes it accumulates in a point in our brain. we're like, well, I can't be the weak link in the system and the family and the friendships and the relationships and the team and the business. So I'm not going to say anything, but it feels noble. It feels like the right decision, but it rarely works out. I hear what you're saying. You are saying we think we are being loving and considerate of our spouse, our family by being strong when actually the loving and considerate thing we can do often is to be vulnerable okay that is such a great point and i fully agree with you at this juncture i am very excited to introduce a very new we'll call it a segment oh into in good faith season two doing something new this took us forever to get to season two our apologies but we're off and running now we're off and running this is called the voice memo vault whoa and we So this for this first time, we were having this conversation with some friends and they sent in some questions to us that we have not heard, which is exciting, which we're excited about.

29:55 But in the future, we're just going to pull out voice voice memos that hopefully listeners send in, send in your voice memo. And sometimes we'll give you a specific topic. I don't know. But we just it's a it's a fun way to interact and see what's happening. So our commitment is that we will not know what is on the voice memos before we listen to them, that we all get to hear them in real time. Yes. And we get to have a topic about the conversation. So. Wait, is this about vulnerability or? It's about vulnerability. Here we go. Should we listen? We change because I have more thoughts to share, but. We have to wrap up the conversation. Okay. Let's hear this first one together. Hey, guys. Jude and Chelsea. My husband and I are big fans of the podcast. And my question was, what advice would you give to couples who have faced betrayal or infidelity, especially stemming from sexual temptation and they're trying to rebuild trust? Such a great communication.

30:53 Start us with an easy one, huh? So help me make sure I got that question. So it's what would you say to a spouse who's found out about infidelity? They've been cheated on. Betrayed and rebuild trust. And how do you rebuild? That's a real question. And I, you know, I think trust can be in the world we live in. There's so many ways that sacred intimate bond, whether it's, you know, through through an affair, through through DMs, through inappropriate. Like, there's just so many ways that that trust can be violated in the world that we live in. I think a couple of things and a lot of my thoughts are coming from raising teenagers, maybe. the first thing is this, if at all possible, it is always so much better to tell on yourself, because you know where I'm going with this, to tell on yourself than to get caught.

31:46 And maybe you're coming in a place where you've already been caught. So, okay, we can set, you can set that aside for a minute. We'll address that. But if you haven't yet, you still got a chance to out yourself and there's something different about that. Right. And if we've been having this conversation and something is coming up in your mind something is oh yeah so you just had that nagging sensation of oh yeah and you know you're like you're a listener you know exactly what it is do yourself a favor and before you get caught out yourself do you think that's the first step to step one i mean and you realize it's so interesting because in that moment you are going to completely crush trust but in that act you will also be taking a step and you won't feel the effects of it at first, but you will be taking a step to rebuild trust. Even as you crush it gives you a much better shot. That's for sure.

32:40 Cause it's, it's not going to feel like you're building any trust at that moment because you're tearing it apart, but, but it will be remembered and it will be recalled that it was something that you brought to your loved one. And that can go a long way. In an effort to motivate anyone out there who's in a situation, and it could be a business partner too, by the way, where it's like you've cheated on the money and you've taken some of the money or you've done something unethical and it could dramatically affect the business status, partnership status. here's why I would urge you or how I would urge you to do this. And that is that, frankly, this idea that like, oh my word, this is crazy. How outrageous. How could you? That's such an interesting concept. How could you? Well, we actually know the answer to that because we've all broken trust. We're all human. We've all done things. Now, we tend to as human beings down here in linear time and space to rank different acts.

33:49 And by the way, in a relationship, I understand there are certain acts. Theologically, sin is sin. Yeah. Relationally, certain acts violate trust significantly more than other things do. But I think sometimes we assume on the business partner or the spouse that they are going to be so shocked and so devastated. And they may very well be, but let's keep in mind and sober ourselves up a little bit and go, hey, as human beings, we all break trust all the time. And so everyone listening to this conversation, whoever you are, whether you like it or not, you absolutely can relate to that voice memo. That voice memo is relatable. And we got to start there, that we're actually all in this together. and maybe infidelity becomes this big, whoa, oh, thank God I've never been involved with infidelity. But we've all had temptations and desires and thoughts and we've all cut some corners in life.

34:53 And so I say that because oftentimes when things aren't level and there's not this relatability, we think we are, you know, the terrible, horrific, worst person ever. So what's the use? It doesn't matter. It's redeemable. It's recoverable. God is gracious. You never know the possibility. And by the way, assuming on your business partner or spouse or friend how they're going to react, you don't know. but it's worth absolutely this relationship this business this friendship is worth putting yourself out there this is what i've done and um i just 100 believe what i'm about to say the sooner the better i know it yeah it never it will holding on to something it will never get easier it will never get better and i think too whether you out yourself or you've been outed or you've been caught yeah now next step yeah next step rebuilding trust is admitting that trust has been violated and trust has been torn down and it was torn down by your actions by taking that ownership you need to go back to the um you know the garden of eden eden right the famous moment where the famous moment is it famous yeah where adam and eve have sinned and god comes looking for them yeah and as soon as god approaches them and says what happened adam's response is well she made me do it and that is those guys been doing that ever since well that's all of us humans have let's be honest but thanks for owning it for the guy's sake um but that is a sure way to evolve to devolve trust that has already been ruined whereas if you take and say i was wrong you are right and the consequences of my actions were to violate your trust and the trust that we have is the most valuable piece of this relationship. It's the most valuable currency.

36:47 This relationship functions on the currency of trust. And I have robbed that and owning that from the get-go. And I simply just want to expound on that by saying in moments where you have been vulnerable to me about decisions or actions that you regretted of any kind, small or great, um i'm reminded that there has been more than one time where you've said i you know i i did it because i liked it like i i in the moment i'm so embarrassed i love you so much i didn't want to do this but you know i it felt good in the moment and i remember one time yet was like you shared sensitive things about our marriage or friendship or whatever to somebody. And, and I was like, Hey, why would you tell them that? Like, and you're like, I'm so sorry. I'm an idiot. Like, I love you. I, it made me feel special.

37:52 Like I belong. Yeah. It made me feel better than you. And I liked it. That, that has meant so much to me. It's such a great point because that acknowledges what the root desire is. And then I think, I believe that gives hope for rebuilding trust in the future of, okay, instead of just working on the action, that we can work on the desire and be honest with that. Exactly. Instead of saying like, I hate it. I still can't believe I did. I hate myself for doing that. It's like, well, but you did it because you liked it in the moment. It felt good, right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Then we're getting somewhere, you know, because that's us being human. And I'll say one of my favorite verses in the sacred scriptures, God remembers that we're dust. And we are very, very well and truly mortal and broken and fragmented. And we are not whole, we are not complete. We will be someday, but we are not. And admitting that just, I think the healing process is sped up, if I can say that.

38:55 And I do have to say this as a, I don't know if caveat's the right word, but this conversation doesn't mean that every relationship where trust has been violated needs to be repaired yeah some just need there needs to be a yeah letting go forgive this always needs to happen but sometimes it's a walk away and sometimes it's a walk away first yeah um and then see what happens and sometimes it's forgiving every day and never speaking to them again you know maybe there is that for for your own health and and and for yeah okay so we started with you know real easy question yeah we didn't did we and then lastly oh yeah yeah lastly just to wrap up i mean infidelity and and i just think um depending on the audience depending on what your spouse desires i think the more that you can share what was going on in your brain and your body and your soul and why you actually truly really did it um is is incredible last thing in an effort to avoid infidelity one of the things that we practice which i don't know if this is going to be controversial i just realized like wait a minute i don't know if i'm allowed to say this but but but chelsea and i and this has been the last several years because i didn't grow up like this at all but like when you feel attraction towards someone or you feel like oh i kind of feel like i want to flirt with someone, you know, there is a situation where before infidelity grows, because that's how it grows. You can just, I mean, we talk about celebrity crushes or we talk about, you know, wow, that person is so handsome, so attractive. And I get stretching and body work done. And I've had people, women come over and you're like, wow, she was kind of cute. And I'll be like, okay, all right. It's in our living room, but I hear you. You know, and just as silly as that sounds and maybe people won't like this part of the episode um it has been really really trust building and meaningful because it's like okay that guy was so handsome and he really liked you and seemed to talk to you a lot at the party how was that you know it's like oh i don't know what

41:03 you're talking about it's like well that erodes trust but it's like yeah he was pretty handsome and i felt pretty cool because he kept talking to me that was pretty awesome you know and that has And we have a group of friends that practice the same thing. And it's built trust. And actually, I think is helping avoid things like infidelity. Yeah, it's built trust and intimacy. Yeah, intimacy. Between the two of us, which has always been so beneficial. Can I just say one last PS on the infidelity? Yes. Outing yourself, sharing the motives and the desires of your heart, very important. Yes. Details, not important. Yeah. What if they're asked for? Wait. Okay. I mean, obviously, I think a lot of times as a counselor, but if they're asked for, just say, you know, we're all emotional right now. Let's think about this. Because once you learn something, you can't unlearn it. Can't unsee it, unfeel it. Yeah. And unvisualize it. And I think it could just make the torment.

41:56 I'm sure there's professionals who are way smarter than us. But I mean, that would be my gut. The gory details can be quite literally unnecessary. Yeah. They can just end up being more hurtful. It's just more to overcome. But that's just a PS that. Yeah. An opinion and a thought. Yeah, just an opinion. Yes. All right. Should we dive into our next? Another vaulted voicemail. Another voicemail vault. Let's see what we have here.

42:20 Hey, guys, I have a question for you. For individuals who are currently single and grappling with sexual temptation, what advice can you offer to help them make choices that they won't regret when they eventually enter into a committed relationship? Definitely a believer. sexual temptation that's awesome oh man i love christians um man advice oh lots of advice what do you think scripture comes to mind it's a it's an old it's an old covenant one so it's one of those like you know what what do we do with it i think it's in deuteronomy or exodus yeah i don't know if that makes sense yeah but it's a really fascinating scripture to mean it's true of human nature no matter what the circumstances are where we live and basically it says that that the people talking about the nation of god the children of israel say they made all these bad decisions because they didn't consider the latter end well it's like they didn't consider what do i really want and when i think about that question and um the way we talk to our teenagers especially is hey what do you really want in life what do you really want in your marriage? What do you really want in your, you know, when your sexual journey and, and to have a vision of that, that's clear. Yeah. Do you think that's a great place to start? Yeah. I mean, the Solomon said, which are, these are sayings that are mostly true. Most of the time he, yeah. Proverbs. Did I say Proverbs? Yeah. Solomon said, but Solomon said in Proverbs, yeah. Book of Proverbs, we call it, but without a vision, people cast off restraint. They live carelessly and that vision has an ability to kind of um put put in some some boundaries you know by pure passion and motivation for what you want all i'm saying is i so agree with your approach because like well what do you what do you want if that's what you want like don't no offense don't be dumb yeah don't be dumb it doesn't it's not like a disney cartoon you don't like get married and then suddenly you never have an urge surge or desire for another human only the person you

44:32 married. Quite the opposite oftentimes. Actually, now you're not single. You're not just running around the streets doing what you want. You now have a spouse, God forbid, maybe kids, and now the stakes are higher. The pain is more intense. The fallout is greater. And all of a sudden it's like, whoa, let's talk about this. And I've encouraged men too, like, don't get married right now. I think there needs to be some time preparation because there's a level of commitment that I think is going to help you get to where you want to be and who you want to be. But it gets back to vulnerability and transparency. It just does. Like, here's what I really, really want. A lot of guys say, this is what I want. It's like, well, I mean, that's really what you want? Well, not really. Okay, great. I had such a meaningful night last night with some friends of mine talking. And one of my friends literally said, and he's not like a teenager, jury's like, I finally know what I want. And we shared tears because it's a big deal when you really know what you want. So you got to get honest too. You start talking about sexual temptation, like what do you really want? Because we say we want stuff, but then our actions say something different. But I think there's power to the exercise you just talked about, which is yes, reverse engineering, but then talking about it. Having open, honest conversations with a group of people, hopefully, who want similar things and who can work and strive, not strive at our own effort, but enjoy the process together of going in the same place. I think it's such a powerful process. As we conclude our conversation today, I want to say what I think is the most powerful tool that aids in vulnerability. And I'm curious if you agree with me. The thing that we need the most internally to be able to walk out exposing our own weaknesses being vulnerable outing ourselves saying what we need i think it is and i'm definitely going theological here yeah i have

46:40 one too i hope yours is mine look at so many bonus points here we go like i want you to write years down now. I think it is understanding that we are all individuals who have made mistakes and messed up, but because of the work that Jesus did by living a perfect life, going to the cross, resurrecting, that we, the Bible calls it righteous, that we have been giving right standing with God, not because of our own work, but because of the work of Jesus. and that means that the work of jesus can't be undone so my right standing before god cannot be undone and gifted not gained and for me that is the inner disposition that i need to continually be vulnerable be honest be transparent so how do we do yeah i couldn't agree more and i would I would simply say the reality of this permanent, unconditional love that you have from the most powerful being in the universe.

47:47 If that doesn't change everything, then nothing will. And that right relationship that we are gifted with God by God. And it's just there. And it's always there. and we are always loved. For God so loved the world. You are not just loved. You're so loved. You're so accepted. You are thought about. His thoughts towards us are more numerous than the sand on the seashore. That gives you this feeling because so much of our life here on earth is performance driven and you earn and deserve. But in our relationship with God, it cannot be earned, cannot be deserved, cannot be warranted. it's only gifted and received and that honestly people i think see us as like preachers or pastors or religious it's like man i i don't have any need for religion i don't need any tradition other than a few golf traditions um i i need love and the love that you and i get from this gregarious wonderful being that we know has a name his name is jesus allows me that secretive late night mental gymnastic moment where I'm like, if I tell her, if I tell them, if I tell him, they might not love me like they used to. I wonder if they'll see me differently. And the conclusion that I get every night and every morning and throughout the day that no matter what i am accepted and i am loved and i am approved and i'm his um well all of a sudden you know all bets are off man i'm free i am truly free as a human and free to own and deliver and and reveal who i really am through and through and that's um and then if that becomes the glue and the basis of a romance or friendship or relationship or business partnership.

49:56 Well, then all of a sudden you're both nightmares, both willing to admit, admit your shortcomings and weaknesses. Well, now, so you got a match made. Right. It's that stance that my worth is not dependent upon how well I have performed. And that stance that can only be granted to us by God, by our creator can actually allow us to be vulnerable, which builds trust. Yes. So I would like to conclude. Okay, please. No, I actually want you to get the last word. I would like you to pray, which we love to do. It's not that prayer works. It's that God works. And when we talk to him, things happen and we change. And I think it's simply an incredible exercise that we have been gifted by God to partner with him. And I'd love you to pray for people who are dying in secret, who are suffering in silence because they can't possibly imagine telling anybody what's really going on in their life and their heart.

51:09 And, you know, our prayer is going to turn into a church service if we're not careful here. But our prayer is that you, yes, you watching or listening would suddenly feel the love of God in such a profound and intimate personal level that it would prompt you to share things maybe you've never shared with the right people in the right setting, not to be reckless. And people often can use the deep. things we share to hurt us. So, you know, God's going to give you wisdom and who to share with, but it needs to be said. It needs to be said. And I think that's going to give some people some courage. So, I did my sermon. Will you pray?