Staying Faithful In Marriage

0:00 Every time I hear marriage to this day at 43 years old, I hear mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. Mawage. From the Princess Bride in case anybody doesn't know. Usually when couples first say I do, they have a pretty rosy idea of what marriage will be like. Yeah, like I thought every day we were going to cuddle, kiss, have sex, and then finish off the night watching The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. But the realities of life and long-term commitment often have other plans for us. And no matter how committed you are to your partner, staying faithful has its challenges. Yeah, and oftentimes we don't talk about those challenges nearly enough, especially with our spouses. So today we're exploring what it means to be a faithful partner in your marriage. And how to have candid conversations with your spouse about everything you're feeling so you can prevent damage before it happens. Stay tuned. This is In Good Faith.

1:00 All right. I am very excited about our topic today on In Good Faith. And I would argue it's potentially the most vulnerable topic we've ever talked about. And that is how to stay faithful in marriage or... How to not cheat on your spouse. Yeah. But this word faithful is a word we really did choose on purpose for the topic because it starts with faith. And I think for us, being faithful has an intrinsic connection to our faith. But it's certainly a significant part of our marriage story and our trajectory these last 22 years. And it goes all the way back to the summer of 98. Actually, it was the summer of 99 when you asked to marry me.

1:59 Oh, yes, it was. It was the summer of 99. The summer of 99. It actually goes all the way back to your grandfather before that. So we're going way, way back. I will never forget Chelsea's dad. When I had the infamous lunch with him to ask if I could marry his daughter, a lot of things would come in that conversation, like show me a budget. How will you support my daughter? Right, our $1,400 a month budget. Yeah, yeah. I was making pretty much just above minimum wage working at the church. But he asked me a question that day at lunch. He said, what's your greatest fear? And he shared his, which was so vulnerable that I thought, well, I can't share like my number two or three greatest fear. Yeah, I really got to share my greatest fear. So I looked at your dad and I said, to be honest, you may not know this, but I was born on my grandfather Elwood's birthday, October 9th.

2:54 Named after him. So then they named me Judah Elwood Smith because at the time my parents didn't even know some of the details of my grandfather. Now we know my grandfather struggled in the area of being faithful in his marriage. He had multiple affairs at multiple churches where he pastored. As he is a pastor. As he's a pastor. He died of cancer, I think, at 43. but it got so bad. He cheated so many times with so many staff members in these different communities that the denomination he was in actually removed him, kicked him out because he was such a liability. My dad did not know that until I think I was like in middle school. So at 16 years old, I remember we pulled into a garage after a promise keepers event at the kingdom in Seattle. Hello, mid-90s. My dad said, I got something to tell you. You need to know something about your grandfather. And he divulged all these instances. Your grandfather cheated on your grandmother multiple times. So I looked at your dad and he said, what's your greatest fear?

4:02 And of course I knew what it was. It was that my middle name's Elwood. I'm born and his birthday. I knew at that point I was going to be a pastor. And I think I feared, well, am I doomed to repeat the mistakes of Elwood. And your dad looked at me and said something that has forever changed my life. Which by the way is so courageous for you to tell the man you want to be your father-in-law that my greatest fear is that I'm going to cheat on your daughter. Yeah. Well, like remember, like he was so vulnerable with his, it was so deep and so real things. I didn't even know about your dad and some of the things he struggled with. And I was like, whoa. And he looked at me and he said, actually, I think it's a blessing that middle name Elwood and the fact that you're born and his birthday. And I said, a blessing. He goes, it's a constant reminder that without God, you'll end up the same way. For those listening that like, you know, oh, I don't even believe in God. Well, at least understand the perspective. I am constantly aware of my fragility and the reality of my normal human condition. And so we have built in over the years for 22 years, a practice together so that neither one of us do that because that's not the life we want and that's not who we are. Yeah. Well, and let's be honest, your grandpa had God too. So I don't think God is the ultimate cure-all for not being a cheater. Yeah. I want to clarify something here.

5:25 I don't think Grandpa Elwood was vulnerable and open and honest, but I think it has produced in me a public acceptance of, hey, my name's Elwood. I was born on his birthday. I'm not going to be that man. And you know, what's amazing is actually looking back over 22 years of marriage and realizing that what my dad said is true, that that awareness that you have actually has been an incredible blessing in our marriage because you're so aware from your grandfather of the potential of I could be a cheater. It has opened up for us the ability to have conversations about how to be faithful, how to not cheat, how to do all these things without me feeling like I'm a bad person or you feeling like you're a bad person, but we're actually in this together to have these conversations. But when we say faithfulness, when we say cheating, what does that mean to you? And I guess, did we ever talk about what that definition is or did we just kind of assume that we both know that meant having sex with somebody else? Do you remember?

6:25 Well, no, I think we definitely, there's been a consensus between us that even getting emotionally involved. If you and I are privately involved in texting or emailing or calling for us, someone of the opposite sex, which we're attracted to, and that that would even cross some lines that we wanted to avoid. Yeah. I just think the things that I've given to you, my body, the intimate places of my heart, my deep emotions, they're only yours. I miss you when you're gone. To me, faithfulness is those things that I have given to you, I still keep only to you. Yeah, that's a great definition. One I thought we had already made after 22 years, but I'm glad we're doing it now on our podcast. This is fantastic. I think that can be an interesting point of conversation for couples too is, hey, what does that mean for us? What does that mean to you? Because of course there is this very strict definition of not having intercourse with somebody else.

7:21 but there is actually so much more to faithfulness than just that very narrow definition that I think couples need to come and agree upon together. But I think there was just a mutual understanding. Yeah. We were really blessed that both of our parents stayed married, your parents for 40 years until your dad passed away. My parents just celebrated 50, almost 52 years of marriage. And so it's interesting. I think because we've seen an example of faithfulness, it maybe didn't necessarily have to be defined, but our experience is pretty rare that way. Huge head start. Huge head start in life and a huge head start if you're out there and you want to be faithful in a relationship or a marriage. We have to own, Chels and I, that being so close in proximity to faithfulness. In close proximity to faithfulness and unfaithfulness with your grandpa, with other couples, like we've got to see both. And I think that's really helped us go through the awkwardness of the many, many conversations that we have had over the past 23 years.

8:19 The things that we've talked about have been awkward and hard and not easy always, but the awkward conversation is so much better than the results of actually being unfaithful. Absolutely. Let me ask you a question as we start out. What role does faith play in being faithful? Recognizing that many people listening don't share the same faith, but for us, it's so paramount. You know, when I think about your grandpa in the era of the 50s, and I think of faith, I think of a lot of silence and secrecy around sex and sexuality. It wasn't a super open topic in my family growing up in the 80s.

9:14 But something happened, I think, for us in our generation, in our era, that either we were going to talk about sex and talk about it openly, or we just weren't going to make it and we weren't going to be able to be faithful. And so when I think about our faith, the personal relationship I have with Jesus says that he loves me unconditionally, says that I'm forgiven of every wrong that I've ever done. And so the goal is that that removes shame from any of my behavior in life. And so I feel that the removal of that shame for me and knowing that no matter what you think about me, no matter what you feel about me, I have a relationship with my creator through Jesus that I am fully loved, fully forgiven and fully in right standing with God. And so to me, that has actually taken away the shame so that I could have open, honest, real conversations with you. The second thing is because our faith teaches us about forgiveness, teaches us about acceptance. I have to believe that you're righteous too.

10:12 I have to believe that you are in right standing with God. And so when you and I have had to have conversations of, man, I just checked out that girl. I think that was hot. I think I've gotten a little emotionally to, you know, all the conversations that we've had that hopefully we'll get into. I couldn't put shame on you because our faith tells us God never uses shame on us. And so we can never use shame on each other. I can never use it on you. I can never use it on our kids. I can't use it on our best friends as a tool to try to manipulate behavior. And so for me, it's really that removal of shame that has been a significant instrument. How about for you? Yes, I just want to reiterate. I think that's so profound. I think a shame-free environment is maybe one of the great preventative aids in this whole process because I think religion, tradition, customs of evangelicals and Christianity in the past for you even to admit that you're attracted to someone. There was shame there.

11:10 In my grandfather's case, who I never met, I'm sure there was a lot of secrecy due to what would be shunned and shamed if he actually, as a quote unquote preacher man, shared that he's attracted to women in the church. But boy, how much less painful it would have been for Elwood if he could have said, hey, I really want to sleep with my assistant. You know, as opposed to he just ended up doing it and not really telling anyone. So thank you for saying that, because I think there's a sense that you're not going to use shame and I'm not going to use shame so that we can continue the conversation. Even though we've always had conversations about, hey, this could be a reality, we're human, you're a man, just like any other man. I'm a woman, just like any other woman. Do you remember when we were with our marriage coaches, Les and Leslie, who've been on this podcast, we love so much. And we were just talking about things that we're facing and dealing with. And remember when Les looked at you and said, Judah, do you feel like it's wrong to find other women attractive or to be attracted to other women?

12:10 It was such a dramatic moment. Do you remember what your response was? Yeah, of course. I mean, you're saying, do I remember? Cause you want to make it dramatic for the podcast. You look like, I don't remember. That's like asking, do you remember when your kids were born almost? Cause it was so groundbreaking and I dropped my head unknowingly, just dropped my head and didn't answer. And Les and Leslie acknowledged like, whoa, your head just dropped. And it was like, oh my word, there's the answer. Yes, I did believe that it was somehow wicked almost, truly bad and wrong to find someone attractive. And so when I did, most days of my life, finding people I'm not married to that I'm attracted to, I just kind of told myself, that's bad, don't be bad and move on. And that's not sustainable. And so I think what less and lessly begin to inform us is actually what takes the power away is when you verbalize it to each other. And obviously there's excessiveness there where it's like every single person, you're like, wow, beautiful.

13:09 Oh, hot. Oh, sexy. Oh, wow. It's like, okay, we're walking through an airport. This is getting out of control. We can never actually have a dinner. Yeah. But the role of faith for me, first of all, God is so gracious. He's so long-suffering. he has been so patient with me that it motivates me I think there's a sense of gratitude that I have you in my life a sense of gratitude that I get to be married to you an old preacher taught me one time that affairs begin with taking each other for granted not being grateful anymore for the love of your life that is a big part of the message of Jesus and the way of Jesus that there's this gratitude every day, like, wow, I get to be married to you. I was just in Atlanta for two and a half days without you and with my closest friends in the world. But I articulated multiple times how beautiful you are, how much you mean to me, how smart you are, and just practicing gratitude. And that's really informed by who our gracious, wonderful God is. But I think my motivation has changed a little bit. I must admit, and this is embarrassing, that I felt like at the end of the day, I'm not going to cheat on you because I would grieve God and God would be mad. I don't think that anymore. I think I don't want to cheat on you because I would grieve you and you would be mad. And I don't want that. You're human. God is divine. He forgives. He loves. In fact, he already knows what I'm going to do before I do it. And so what motivates me now is that I've been given this gift. You're the greatest gift I've ever received other than a reconnection to the divine. I've been made right in my relationship with God. Other than that, my relationship with you is the greatest gift I've ever received. And I don't want to jeopardize that. I don't want to hurt you. I've hurt you in different ways. Those are the worst days. Oh, the worst. I mean, I'm thinking when I've hurt you, yeah. I mean, I'd rather hurt myself than hurt you. Totally. Our view of God has grown and changed over the last 22 years. Thank God my view of you has changed. And it's interesting to think

15:14 how our view of God has evolved and developed our motivation for why do we do any of the things that we do in life, let alone being faithful to each other. But even before that, even in our early years, we've always had open, honest conversations about, hey, Chelsea, I'm really struggling with thinking about other women. Hey, babe, I'm really dealing with just this pull to want to have an affair. It's been a very honest part of our marriage. I think a lot of that goes back to that conversation with your dad. I feel like we have seen each other on the same team for keeping each other faithful. It's not I'm on my team to keep myself faithful and you're on your team. We're on the same team for keeping each other faithful. How would you describe that that's played out over the years? First of all, I think we've treated it as there's been no assumption. there's been no guarantee let's go out there as a team and let's win the day let's be who we are today let's be faithful today and I've always known that you were on my team I remember probably one of my earliest memories is we were youth pastors for a decade and we worked at the University of Washington a lot we had services there late at night those were fun fun nights Yeah.

16:30 What did the service start at nine or 10? Yeah. Great days before kids could stay out late. Oh my gosh. We had so much energy. Right. But I remember coming home to you saying, and I actually can't even remember what she looks like, which is a good sign or what her name was. But there was a college girl. And at the time, good things were happening at the UW. We were in this amazing lecture hall. You had really cool spiky bleach blonde hair. You were so handsome and so cool. I was wearing that old brand Modern Amusement, like I'm shouting out brands now. But I was getting a lot of attention from a few pretty college girls who were pretty excited about what we were doing. And I just came home or maybe in the drive home. Yeah, just open conversation the whole way. I keep thinking about this girl and she gives me attention. You could just tell the vibe. Yeah, I was enjoying it. I was liking it. You were getting emotional energy. That's right.

17:20 I was getting energy from it and was kind of looking forward to getting more of it. And that was like, oh, wait a minute. This is a slip and slide. Man, that looking forward to is such a key that when you find yourself looking forward to that attention, even if it's a meeting with a work colleague, and I find myself making this presentation, hoping to impress this person, just that awareness is so important. But I remember when you and I had that conversation and I wanted to make that moment about me. I wanted to make it about what? Am I not pretty enough? Is she prettier than me? Am I not giving you enough attention? And I just remember feeling that check, hopefully from God, I don't know, maybe from like my mom's voice in the back of my head somewhere that, hey, this moment isn't about you. This moment wasn't about me. It wasn't about a slight that I had been doing anything wrong as a wife. It wasn't that my boobs weren't big enough. It wasn't that, you know, whatever. It was just, you are just a normal human man facing a normal human man experience. And you wanted to invite me into that experience with you.

18:19 And that was such a moment for me. Was I going to be your teammate about this? Or was I going to just be on my team and make this moment about me? And I wonder if I would have done that back then, if that would have shut down so many of the conversations we've had between now and then. At least once a month, you and I have a conversation along the lines of feeling- I'm feeling tempted or I feel tired or that just sounds nice or an escape. An escape, yeah. A lot of times it's got very little to do with our sex drive or lust. It's got more to do with just being weary, tired, and looking for an exit. And that for me, when you and I first took over leading the church from your parents and I had three kids, Grace was baby nursing, hormones crazy. All of a sudden we had this new pressure of this brand new job responsibility. And for us also has been a motivation to be faithful in our job. There are requirements in the Bible, not for our right standing with God, but for our position of leadership within the church. Being faithful to your spouse is just one of the non-negotiable requirements in the Bible, at least the way we see it.

19:18 But the pressure that we were facing in life on so many fronts, your dad was passing away of cancer. He was dwindling before our eyes. I mean, I just felt myself at times wanting to just drive to go pick up a guy, check him out, and go have an affair. and I don't think I put it together right away, but knowing eventually that that was a way out. It's like somewhere in the back of my subconscious. I knew that would be a way out of all the pressure we were feeling and facing. And of course I knew that would bring a whole lot of pain that I didn't want. But for me, the courage to have that conversation with you and just say, I don't know what is going on. Just don't even let me go driving out in the middle of the night. Don't let me go driving late at night. I'm trying to find, it doesn't even mean a hot guy. just a willing guy just to give me. So I held you in my arms all night. Like, no, I don't know if I did that. But we just kept the conversation going.

20:11 And it's funny because when I admit it or you admit it, we both are like, oh, oh yeah, okay, I understand. And thank you for telling me. And now I can know where you're at and be a really, really good team member. Yeah. And then we can be on that same team together. And that's always been so helpful and so beneficial. Have I ever overreacted to you sharing and being vulnerable in this area? Oh, that's a good question. There was a time when I was very flirty with a coworker and you saw it. This was beyond like, hey, babe, I'm thinking about something. It was a bit more of an ongoing flirtiness. And you reacted, but I thought it was in a really good way because it woke me up to, oh my gosh, I don't want to hurt Judah.

21:09 It wasn't an anger reaction. It was a hurt reaction. And again, something that I said I was going to give to you and get from you, which is that emotional energy, that feeling that I'm a sexy woman that I'm supposed to get from you. I was kind of getting from somebody else. And you reacted, but I think it was actually the reaction I needed was to see the hurt in you and realize I don't want to hurt this man that I love so much, so desperately. Yeah. That was a really bonding time as well. I think conversely, I started drinking wine and tequila probably when we were like 33, 34. And I think I discovered that drinking alcohol really dropped my guard, mostly in anger. I ended up breaking your Kindle on our 20th wedding anniversary. But I think it also dropped my defenses in terms of who I really am.

22:05 By the grace of God, it never got to the point of no return by any means, but recognizing my own behavior, where my eyes went or where a joke went, and you're just like, wait a minute. So I stopped. I stopped drinking. Almost two and a half years. And it's improved my life significantly, to be honest. I will drink again, I believe, in our older years in the desert or in Italy somewhere. But we've been able to identify, I think, you were really tired, exhausted, and overwhelmed in the season you're referencing, whether it's flirty with a coworker or whether it's I'm going to get in a car and I'm just going to drive. And as silly as it sounds, I think one of the great preventative works we've done in our marriage is getting away together. Like dropping everything and just being like, we're calling it. Sorry, we got to cancel a few days and we're just going to get away. Yeah.

22:58 And we're fortunate enough to have that flexibility in our jobs. Very fortunate. We've been the bosses. So we can do that. I also think we've set boundaries in place. Like you stopping to drink has been one of those boundaries. I think of so many of the people that we know who have done things that they've ended up regretting. alcohol has been involved. Yeah, it seems to be the common denominator, unfortunately. Although I still drink, which I'm grateful for. But we have some boundaries in place. And I don't know if it's our specific boundaries that work, but it's the fact that we've had open, honest conversations that has led us to putting boundaries in place that are flexible and changeable, but that you and I agree on. And just getting some practical measures in place to stay faithful to each other? I think probably when guys and gals like you and me who are pastors or preachers or whatever, which is part of what we do, it's not who we are, but a part of what we do is lead a community and guide them through the Bible narrative about Jesus. And it's beautiful and wonderful. But I think a lot of times people like us enforce agreed upon action items and values, and we enforce them like they're law.

24:06 And they're just not. Exactly. These are our personal boundaries. I was just in Atlanta and I didn't go by myself. I was there with one of my best friends and we were together the entire time until we went to bed in our separate hotel rooms. I left having a burger and fries and said, hey, I'm going right to my room. I text you when I got to my room. I think I actually called you. And to be honest, I find a great comfort in you knowing where I am. You always know where I am. Yeah. And there's an account of where I am and who I'm with. And if I'm by myself, you know I'm by myself and where I am by myself. First of all, it's eliminating temptation. But second of all, it's also like if a story was to break or, you know, in our own world, someone would say, well, this happened, this happened. We would have a record of kind of where we were. And you do the same thing, particularly when we're on the road. But even when we're around town in our home, hey, where are you? What's going on?

24:58 How's your day? Yeah, it's funny. I can't remember a time where I don't know where you are. I don't think it happens. I literally don't think it happens. You can always check my location. And that just eliminates a little bit of lure that's like, oh, just no one will know. Okay, but speaking of phone, I think one of the boundaries that we have is our phones are both accessible to each other always. Always. We have each other's passcode. Like your grandpa had to have an affair with his secretary in the 50s. I feel like so many things these days that start, start on a phone. Whether it's through DMs, through texts, we can check each other's DMs on Instagram. And I'll check your phone sometimes. Although I will say when I look at your phone, it's not because I am fearful or suspicious or looking to catch you up in something wrong. I'm your teammate. We're on the same team doing this together to have a wonderful, healthy marriage and doing it from a place of trust and permission that you've given me to do. Do you ever check my phone?

25:56 No, I don't. But you definitely check mine. But I think most of the time I know you're going to check it, which is always a good thing. I think you're interested too in all the different combos I'm having. You're like, wow, this is crazy. I'm tired. No, I am so impressed with how many people you love, encourage, reach out to a day. And by the way, if a conversation ever gets private, I don't read it, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. You're not reading, but you are just making sure that there are women that I'm texting, you know, coworkers or friends or whatever. It's like, okay, is everything good? And that's always in the back of my mind, which is nice. If I stopped letting you have access to my phone, you'd be like, excuse me. Yeah. Right. You'd be like, all right, buddy. I'm calling less than Leslie. Yeah, exactly. It's interesting you say that because I feel like a lot of people feel that looking at your partner's phone, looking at your spouse's phone is a violation of their privacy or it's toxic or it's wrong. Instead of feeling like it actually comes from a place of trust or being on the same team.

26:52 Yeah, I've heard couples, friends, people, oh, you don't trust me? You don't trust me? And it's like, well, not completely. no. I don't trust myself completely. I don't trust myself completely. I don't understand even what that means. So it's an interesting conversation when you start talking about the definition of trust and trust now becomes the elimination of any accountability or checks and balances. And I'm like, no, I just think that's an acknowledgement of humanness and a teammate, a teammate wanting to help. But what would you say to a couple who she wants to check his phone and he doesn't want her to, or they can't agree on a boundary. One person feels like this is for protection. The other feels like you are intruding on my personal space and on my individuality, and you're not trusting of me. Well, I think you've got to see it as a withdrawal or an investment. Do you want to make an investment or do you want to make a withdrawal? And I think there's no perfect answer here, but you've got to assess if you're like, I don't want you checking my phone. Just know whoever you are, that is a withdrawal in that relationship. It just is as opposed to an investment, right? An investment of trust says, absolutely check my phone. And I'm not saying that withdrawal, you can't check my phone is like a surefire way to know you're not going to be faithful. Of course not. But that is not a deposit.

28:13 it. That's a withdrawal. Yeah. And I think it even goes back to the blessing of that story of my dad with you and your grandpa, that our perspective has never been that if we love each other enough, we're not going to cheat. We've always had an awareness that you're human, I'm human. And any thoughts, any temptations that we are on the same team, you know, is another fun thing that we've done is we've said often, let's just have affairs with each other and genuinely having weekends, having evenings, having sex life that we are not bringing any work in. We're not bringing any kids in. We are just going away for the pure fun of having sex and having a sexy time together. I really like how you dress during those times. We are not getting into this right now. You always dress well, by the way. I'm just saying, you know. My mom's one advice before we got married was make sure you have sexy clothes till we're on vacation. I know. God. Marilyn, if you're listening, thank you love you so much it's really helped us like everyone needs an affair now and again so just go have one we're like a sitcom sometimes one night you're like hey i'm going to the bar you have to pick up on me you know like it's hilarious and fun and awesome and sometimes super cheesy and awkward but it has added so many fun stories and so much fun to our life and while we're talking about this I'm like, yeah, what are we doing our next affair?

29:33 I know, hopefully soon. Speaking of affairs, we have walked with a decent amount of couples who have cheated on each other. Is there hope for those couples? How does the person who has cheated forgive themselves? How does the person who has been cheated on recover? Is there a hope for that relationship? It's interesting. It's been said and will probably be continued to be said. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Cheaters always cheat. Cheaters always cheat. Cheaters be cheating. But of course, our faith informs us differently. We always believe there's hope for humanity. We always believe there's hope for damaged goods because we're living, talking, walking proof of that. You and I are damaged goods. Our story is that the grace of God has kept us from some things at this point. And our journey, it's so far from perfect, deeply flawed. But there are lines that I cross that if I do, things aren't ever quite the same.

30:31 And that's just the way it is. That's life. And to a smaller degree, that's been true in our marriage in 22 years. There are certain things it's like never quite the same. That could be season of life, but it could be decisions as well. And I crossed the line, I think, with alcohol. I got angry. I wasn't myself. And it was like, okay, that won't ever be the same really again. And so in the case of our friends and loved ones and pastor peers who have crossed that line, Our faith certainly informs, blanket answer, prepare yourself accordingly, that yes, there is life after. Now, we get into the nuances of should the husband give his trust back to his wife who cheated on him? Should any girlfriend, boyfriend, spouse, whatever, give the trust back? Well, hey, we are not in any sort of practice here in good faith of telling people you have to go back to that marriage, that relationship, that romance. Having said that, if you're a cheater listening right now, I think the most important thing I could say is there is hope for you without a doubt.

31:41 And we have all cheated in ways. It's one thing to cheat sexually on someone you've committed to, but we have all cheated in ways. So to say that we can't relate to people who've had affairs is ridiculous. Yeah, well, I would say similarly, if you're somebody who has been cheated on, and your heart feels shattered, and you're wondering if you can ever trust again, there is healing for you. There is hope for you. I don't think you will ever be the same. That's a scar that will most likely remain for your life. But that doesn't mean you can't be healthy and happy and fulfilled in a trusting relationship. But it is a process. And it can be a very painful, long process. So I mean, this is hope, but hope with reality. And I don't think we are under any notions that life isn't messy, but I'm just so grateful in our journey that we believe in a God who's right in the middle of our mess and that he can help us make something beautiful out of it. even when there is a lot of hopelessness and you feel like you've burned down the house you built with your own actions.

32:46 I believe there are second chances and there's hope. And that's something that we've had to navigate with some friends. And it's been painful and challenging and difficult. And in some cases, boundaries we've had to build in from relationships that had to change because of decisions and practices and approaches that were being taken. And so I do want to say one last thing, which is a really unusual thing to say, but maybe you're the friend who's kind of in the middle of some friends who are going through a fallout because of cheating. And you're thinking, I gotta help, I gotta help. I would just say to even the innocent bystanders who are friends and loved ones and family members who wanna help, that you too build in boundaries so that in the process of helping someone, you don't cost yourself dearly because you get weary, worn out, tired. We believe in a God who's the savior and the superhero. We're not the savior.

33:39 We're not the superhero. Yeah. And I think as we conclude this episode, just really wanting to leave with some toolkit of a conversation starter for spouses to have. And if you don't know where to start, I would just say, start with a very honest place of defining what does faithfulness look like to us than just saying, okay, how do we achieve that in our lives? The next question I think that can be so helpful is if I find my, not if, when I find myself struggling, when I find myself tempted, when I find myself attracted to somebody else, do you want me to come talk to you about it? How do you want me to approach you? Or do you want me to find another person to talk to? And don't say if I said it wrong the first time, say when I find myself. And then both of you being on the same team, getting those tools and strategies together and making this an open part of the dialogue for the rest of your marriage. Talk preemptive work. That's the advice that we can throw out there today.

34:32 have those preemptive conversations. Everyone thinks they're awkward. Just imagine how awkward it will be. Ladies think about how awkward a pap smear is, you know? Oh, how did we get there? I promise I have an analogy. It's screening. It's cancer screening, right? Like you could go through a pap smear or you could actually have full-blown ovarian cancer. It's worth the screening. And these conversations are just, they're like medical screening. It's better to catch it early, better to catch it before it's something that's full grown and just keep it going. Pap smear too much? No, I was just thinking like about a physical, you know, turn to left and cough. I'm like, oh yeah. All right. Well, what a way to end on how to be faithful in marriage. On that note, do you want to pray? Absolutely. God, thank you that even in this, even in the endeavor of being committed to the love of our life, you have a plan and you're great and you're gracious and you're forgiving and you don't use shame. And as a result, I just pray that everyone listening right now would feel an overwhelming sense of hope. But God, in the few seconds we have left of this recording, I pray specifically for two people. I pray for those who have cheated. I pray you'd comfort them, assure them that life is not over and there is beauty ahead. Though they might be in the middle of the most excruciating pain of their life, there's beauty ahead. And secondly, I pray for that individual who's been cheated on. They feel betrayed. They feel lost. They feel lonely. Maybe they feel unlovely. I pray you would minister, comfort, keep. I can imagine even someone right now driving in their car, tears coming down their face. Will I ever have true love again? Will there ever be a sense of trust again? I pray you'd assure our friends right now

36:41 that you are the God of second chances. And you take what will destroy and derail and you work it for good. We thank you for this and we ask you for this. Amen. Amen. This has been a presentation of OBB Sound, SB Projects, and Cadence 13. Executive produced by Chelsea Smith, Judah Smith, Michael D. Ratner, Scott Ratner, Elias Tanner, Scooter Braun, Scott Manson, James Shin, and Chris Corcoran. Produced by Grace Delia, Caitlin Plummer, and Eve Bishop of OBB Sound, and Kyle Vanuja of SB Projects. Produced by Lauren LaGrasso and Serena Regan of Cadence 13. Edited, mixed, and mastered by Daniel Chavez Crook. With editing support from Caitlin Plummer and Eve Bishop.

37:37 Original composition by Colin Gilliard. Production support from Kristen Crosby and Dylan Martyr. OBB Sound.